[twins3b]

M.Magis I'm sure you know your laws in Ohio but they are very different from state to state and in VA a Game Warden has the right to search private property without a warrant if his investigation leads him to believe there is evidence of a game violation on that property, which would include if a person he feels is credible tells him that you have an illegally taken deer in your freezer. Here is an article from PA which is basically the same right. So the constituion/laws the rest of them are bound by are not exactly the same as yours. Not really trying to be smart but your "No they can't." is actually a yes they can. I'll try get the VA law out of the book and post it if I get time.

http://www.thetimes-tribune.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=19057608&BRD=2185&PAG=461&dept_id=418218&rfi=6

 

[ohiosam]

M.Magis I'm sure you know your laws in Ohio but they are very different from state to state and in VA a Game Warden has the right to search private property without a warrant if his investigation leads him to believe there is evidence of a game violation on that property, which would include if a person he feels is credible tells him that you have an illegally taken deer in your freezer. Here is an article from PA which is basically the same right. So the constituion/laws the rest of them are bound by are not exactly the same as yours. Not really trying to be smart but your "No they can't." is actually a yes they can. I'll try get the VA law out of the book and post it if I get time.

US constitution trumps state law.
4th amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

 

[M.Magis]

This is three months old, and I have no idea why it was borught back up. Regardless, your using ONE instance, which if really pressed, would be overturned. I'm not saying right or wrong, but they are NOT different than any other law enforcement.

 

[twins3b]

The ONE instance you are refering to is a Supreme Court Ruling it cannot be pressed any further. Do you understand how Government works? It was pressed and pushed and appealed to the highest court possible. Unless there is a new ruling buy the same Supreme Court or an amendment made to the PA constitution it is law. It cannot be overturned, only amended.

 

[CritterGitter]

I read the article in the posted link. It seems a little vague. They can search your property, but I don't think that means they can enter your domicile without your consent and search your premises without a warrant. Now, they might be able to come onto the land and search it. Then, suppose they find a bunch of gut piles and there is only one guy lives there. Hmmmm, maybe that gives them further probable cause. I don't know. Though, I doubt a game warden can just come barge into your house and bust open the freezer without a warrant. Seems little extreme to me.

Kyle

 

[ohiosam]

There is a huge difference between an officer walking on land and entering a home. Also this is a PA State Supreme Court ruling not Federal.

 

[M.Magis]

Okay twins3b, here's one that went to the US Court of Appeals and with which a precedent was set. This comes up quite often with taxidermists, and most are just as ignorant of the laws as you are (no offence meant by that). I was too for a long time. To save you a little reading, a search can NOT be conducted without a warrant or consent.

http://pgchallofshame.com/stories/page8.htm

 

[jackalope]

Last year I was walking back to my truck in the dark. About 50 yards from the truck, but 10 feet from me Byron Pierce jumped out, threw a Mag light on me, and yelled GAME OFFICER! After I checked my pants, he asked for my gun (to check for a plug) and my papers. I was clean. I made a comment about some missing / rusted signs stating no hunting before Oct 15… And I had seen people hunting there on Oct 1st.. Guess what.. this year, bright new shiny signs.

 

[twins3b]

Probable Cause is really what matters here and if a Virginia Game Warden has probable cause to believe that you have comitted a game violation and the evidence is in your home he will enter without a warrant if he feels he doesn't have time to get one and arrest you for obstruction if you try to stop him. The Commonwealth of Virginia gives a lot of power to the wardens. They have much more power than other state agencies. Although there are situations that any law enforcement officer can enter a home without a warrant. Your 100 percent right about the US Constitution trumping state laws sam, I've made that same statement on another issue. The 4th amendment protects against "unreasonable search and seizure". In VA it is up to the warden to decide what is reasonable when it comes to game violations. The law you are refering to is in PA in 1999. The PA Supreme Court Ruling was last month. I really didn't mean to bring PA into this, it was just the first acticle I found regarding the issue. I was talking about Virginia in my original post. I will do some more research tomorrow and see exactly how the law reads. And M.Magis I don't take offense to the word ignorant. It fits all of us from time to time. I'm just glad to have members here to have civil discussion with and hopefully in the end we will all come out of it a little less ignorant than when it began.

 

[ohiosam]

The 4th amendment protects against "unreasonable search and seizure". In VA it is up to the warden to decide what is reasonable when it comes to game violations.

Are game violations exempt from due process in VA? Ultimately a judge will decide it the officer's actions were reasonable.

I asked a lawyer about searches. His advise was to never give officer permission to search. If he insists on searching anyways, don't try to physically stop him let your lawyer deal with it if it goes that far.

The reason I'm debating this is because many people are under the impression the they have to submit to about anything the GW asks. GWs are quit happy to let people continue to believe this.

 

[deerhunter_matt]

Are game violations exempt from due process in VA? Ultimately a judge will decide it the officer's actions were reasonable.

I asked a lawyer about searches. His advise was to never give officer permission to search. If he insists on searching anyways, don't try to physically stop him let your lawyer deal with it if it goes that far.

The reason I'm debating this is because many people are under the impression the they have to submit to about anything the GW asks. GWs are quit happy to let people continue to believe this.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe that if you refuse to grant permission for a search, doesn't that give the officer probable cause/reasonable suspicion? Something like "Why would he refuse if he wasn't hiding something?" Am I right in this thinking?

Fact of the matter is, if you aren't breaking any laws, what is the big deal? That's just how I feel.

 

[M.Magis]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe that if you refuse to grant permission for a search, doesn't that give the officer probable cause/reasonable suspicion? Something like "Why would he refuse if he wasn't hiding something?" Am I right in this thinking?

No, that is not correct. They must get a warrant if you don't consent. You may be thinking of charging a driver with DUI if he refuses to take a breathalizer test.

 

[Eric45653]

I already researched AND argued this topic. This is the way it is. See below.

OHIO REVISED CODE 1531.13
".....Any regularly employed salaried wildlife officer may enter any private lands or waters if the wildlife officer has good cause to believe and does believe that a law is being violated."

An officer only needs "good cause to believe a law is being violated" to enter private land. Once that "good cause" has been shown to be invalid, at that point i think you can ask him/her to leave....BUT.... I think he will only apologize and leave anyway.

If you refuse to give consent to an officer to search your home or building, at that point, he would need a warrent.....BUT.... I know in other cases where an officer can detain you (to preserve evidence) while his office obtains a warrent.
(Ref: ORC 1531.13)

 

[TheCream]

Most Game Wardens are good guys that aren't out to screw you. However there are a few that are exceptions to the rule. Kinda like the speed trap where tickets are handed out for going 1 mph over the limit.

I completely agree with that statement. Have I ever been cited for any violations, no. Do I know folks who have, yes I do. The most common infraction from people I know is a shotgun that was not plugged, limiting it to 3 shots. In one of the cases, it was intentional. In the other, it was an honest mistake. Look, I agree, if you break the rules, even by accident, you should not be shocked at getting a citation.

HOWEVER, I think in a lot of instances, the attention paid to such minor infractions is excessive when there are far-bigger problems out there that need taken care of. With only a handful of wildlife officers per county, I think the efforts should be made first and foremost to deal with the most extreme violations first. I know you can't bust poaching rings every week, but let's face it, there are enough of them out there that it SHOULD be happening. Law-abiding hunters like me, and I'm sure you all agree, are fed up with animals being killed illegally and seemingly little being done about it.

A friend and I had this discussion last week, that folks who are just getting started in hunting and get fined for an honest mistake are probably going to question "Is it worth hunting?" It would be easy for a young or new hunter to buy a $15 antlerless archery/urban tag, legally hunt and arrow a doe after gun season, and mistakenly check the deer in with the invalid tag. What is going to happen to that hunter? He/she is probably going to get a nice fat citation in the mail. The more complicated tag systems become, the more frequent this problem will be. The hunter in the situation I described could legally hunt the animal, kill the animal, tag the animal, and check in the deer...but out of confusion could still get penalized. Hey, it's in the rules, that's right. But while you are busting an honest hunter for an honest mistake, there are folks out there with .22's and spotlights shooting deer right and left and getting away with it. :nono:

 

[ohiosam]

Fact of the matter is, if you aren't breaking any laws, what is the big deal? That's just how I feel.

You haven't read every law on the books, very few people have. Many are subject to interpretation. I'll guarantee even the most conscientious among us has violated some rule.

Here is an example that could get you in trouble. You travel to a state where they don't tag deer. You shoot a nice buck and bring it back home. It has no tag, a game warden decides to search your place and finds it. How do you prove where it came from? How much will the lawyer cost you?
An honest sportsman can be wrongly accused. There is an interesting story in the December issue of NAM about a case where the guy seems to be innocent.

 

["J"]

Let's face it. It's a lot easier to ticket the guy for an unplugged gun or walking out of the woods after dark and getting accused of hunting after hours. The GW's have a pretty hard job when it comes to hunting season trying to patrol a whole county is got to be a nightmare. But it takes a lot of hours and manpower to bust a poaching ring, all your ducks better be in order or the lawyers will get it thrown out on technicalities. So if any of them have been caught up in a year long investigation and then had it thrown out, who do you think they will be citing for a while? You guessed it the easier infractions, it's just human nature. Do I fault them for it, no I don't they're still doing their jobs, just not how some feel they should that's all. Let's face it we all make mistakes that's why we're called humans, there isn't a person out there that hasn't broken a law or two while hunting me included, because I don't care who you are the letter of the law is to detailed to follow 100% period no matter how hard we try.

 

[deerhunter_matt]

You haven't read every law on the books, very few people have. Many are subject to interpretation. I'll guarantee even the most conscientious among us has violated some rule.

Here is an example that could get you in trouble. You travel to a state where they don't tag deer. You shoot a nice buck and bring it back home. It has no tag, a game warden decides to search your place and finds it. How do you prove where it came from? How much will the lawyer cost you?
An honest sportsman can be wrongly accused. There is an interesting story in the December issue of NAM about a case where the guy seems to be innocent.

I would know that in my state it is illegal to possess un-tagged said parts of an animal which require tagging. I would be sure to contact whichever authorities necessary and be sure to fulfill the requirements to make my possession legal. The DNR puts out a publication which highlights and simplifies all applicable regulations for hunters. If you break the law, it's your fault for not knowing. So, like I said, if you aren't breaking the law you have nothing to worry about. If you don't know that you are breaking the law, it's your own fault. Ignorance is no excuse. Every hunter has the responsibility of knowing all applicable local, state and federal regulations.

 

[deerhunter_matt]

Let's face it. It's a lot easier to ticket the guy for an unplugged gun or walking out of the woods after dark and getting accused of hunting after hours. The GW's have a pretty hard job when it comes to hunting season trying to patrol a whole county is got to be a nightmare. But it takes a lot of hours and manpower to bust a poaching ring, all your ducks better be in order or the lawyers will get it thrown out on technicalities. So if any of them have been caught up in a year long investigation and then had it thrown out, who do you think they will be citing for a while? You guessed it the easier infractions, it's just human nature. Do I fault them for it, no I don't they're still doing their jobs, just not how some feel they should that's all. Let's face it we all make mistakes that's why we're called humans, there isn't a person out there that hasn't broken a law or two while hunting me included, because I don't care who you are the letter of the law is to detailed to follow 100% period no matter how hard we try.

I'm gonna call BS on this one. Look, I'm not trying to be attacking or anything, but like I said in my post just before this one, it is your responsibility to know all applicable laws. Yes, we all make mistakes. Unfortunately, some of those mistakes come with consequences. Make the mistake, face the consequence. If you are walking out of the woods after dark and your gun is loaded or your arrow is knocked, guess what? You are gonna get cited!!!! If your gun isn't plugged while pursuing deer or migratory birds, guess what? You're gonna get cited!!! The DNR isn't going to hand out citations for someone not breaking the law. If they do, then fight it, and you should have no problem winning. Be courteous, don't break the laws.

Also like I said, the regs book explains in layman terms all applicable regulations. No, you don't have to read each regulation in it's original form. Read the regs, they provide you with the DNR's interpretation, which is all that will matter if you get caught. "Well, I was hunting for rabbits with my unplugged gun, but this dove flew over so I shot it. Therefore, since I was originally hunting for rabbits, I wasn't breaking the law." WRONG. Busted.

I am sure to read the regs front to back EVERY YEAR. That way, I know if I am about to break a law.

 

[Eric45653]

I think were getting off topic. The OP was concerning GW tresspassing and 4th amendment issues.
Maybe start a new thread?

 

[deerhunt45]

I think were getting off topic. Maybe start a new thread?

Dang hijackers

This thread was dead for 4 months before being resurrected. It's only natural after many pages of posts for the topic to "drift" a bit. Not sure what more there is to discuss.

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