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Saugeyes vs Walleyes

Discussion in 'Warm Water Species Fishing' started by Gunrod, Dec 27, 2002.

  1. I'm not the brightest bulb in the bunch but is there a difference in the two fish or is this just something you call walleyes in Ohio?

    I looked at some photos of saugeyes in a different thread and could only see some coloration differences and those could be from something like water temps or food consumption.
     

  2. It's a breed between a sauger and a walleye. And trust me....they don't act ANYTHING like a walleye. Especially on the feed. Find them suspending, forget it. Tight to the bottom? You'll nail them.
     
  3. tpet said it

    It's a hybrid walleye. I think walleyes are more a lake fish & spawn in rivers, where the saugers are a river fish. Saugers like the turbid water, have a more steamlined shape, are smaller. They inhabit the same water with walleyes, but feed & spawn differently. They are cousins and can crossbeed naturally in the wild. They fill a gap that stocked walleyes won't.....in other words, they will often do better than walleys introduced into lakes. so the state has a breeding program at the hatcheries & stocks them.
    Same type of thing with hybrid stripers. They are a cross with a striper & a white bass-hence the nickname whipers. Much hardier than a striper, but much larger & feistier than a white bass.
    I'm sure Erie will post a link tell us the truth soon.....I reserve the right to admit I may be wrong !:confused:
     
  4. Don't worry about being wrong Mrfish. You could have told me it was a cross between a shark and a whale. I wouldn't have a choice but to believe you.:D

    I take it they taste the same as a walleye?
     
  5. Saugeye Reproduction By Jim Corey

    I posted this on Walleye Central in answer to a question and thought I'd post it here too FYI:

    Saugeye Reproduction
    By Jim Corey

    Contrary to popular belief, Saugeyes can and do reproduce both with either parent species and
    with other Saugeyes. The most informative study that I have been able to find on the subject
    was done by M.C. Hearn in 1986, titled "Reproductive viability of Walleye-Sauger hybrids". It
    was published in the Progressive Fish-Culturist 48:149150.(now the North American
    Aquaculture Journal)
    Part of the confusion lies in the fact that all Saugeyes are not created equal. Of the eggs
    resulting from the cross of a male Sauger and a female Walleye (F1 Hybrids), some will turn
    out to be true Triploid Saugeyes (sterile hybrids), while others from the same egg mass will
    not develop eggs or even show recognizable gender differences. Still others will develop with
    the ability to produce viable eggs. In the study done by Hearns, the eggs from Female F1
    Hybrids (Saugeyes) were fertilized by milt from male Saugers. The results were 38%
    "swim-up-fry". This term means that, out of the total eggs produced by this single cross, 38%
    lived to complete the swim to the surface necessary for Walleye/Sauger/Saugeye fry to break
    the surface tension of the waters' surface and take that mouthfull of air needed to fill their
    swim bladders for the first time. They then performed the same experiment with one male and
    one female F1 Hybrid (Saugeye) and, when Saugeye-to-Saugeye, the % of swim-up-fry was
    46%, 8% better than when the Saugeye eggs were fertilized by milt from a parent species.
    Further confusion is caused when the body of water where the Saugeyes are stocked has no
    proper spawning habitat. Naturally, no reproduction can take place in such waters. In different
    bodies of water the survival rate of Walleye fry to adulthood may range from 1% to 10%,
    depending on predation and other factors. That figure is basically the same for stocked
    Saugeye fry. With Saugeye, however, only a small percentage of the fish that reach adulthood
    will be capable of producing viable eggs. Then, of course, if those eggs aren't deposited in the
    proper spawning areas, under the right conditions, and fertilized with milt from that equally
    small percentage of male Saugeyes who are virile, the whole point is moot.
    In the right body of water, with the right conditions, Saugeye can and do reproduce, but in a
    limited way, and not in a way to sustain a population without stocking.
    The best source that I know of for information on Saugeye can be gotten from the Ohio State
    University, Department of BioSciences.

    Other studies of interest are:

    "Comparative survival, growth, and reproductive development of juvenile Walleye, Sauger,
    and their hybrids reared under intensive culture conditions." J.A. Malison, D.L. Johnson, and
    S.A. Schell. 1982 North American Journal of Fisheries Management 2:381-387

    "Reproduction of Saugeyes (Fx Hybrids) and Walleyes in Normandy Reservoir, Tennesee." F.C.
    Fiss, S.M. Sammons, P.W. Betolli, and N. Billington, 1997. North American Journal of Fisheries
    Management 17:215-219

    __________________
    Jim Corey


    Here's some more Saugeye info:

    When the ODNR first decided to explore the idea of stocking Saugeyes they had the OSU Bio
    Sciences people do extensive experimenting in controlled environments like aquaculture
    ponds,tanks, etc.. The first real effort at stocking was at Pleasant Hill in 1979. They expected
    that, being hybrids, the offspring would be sterile. There were studies being done on the
    Kentucky Lake stockings at about the same time but apparently the powers that be in Ohio
    didn't know of them or disregarded the findings. I find it hard to believe that they weren't
    aware because much of the data used by OSU was taken directly from prior studies in
    Kentucky. From what I can find, the OSU people knew by 1882 that Saugeyes were capable of
    limited reproduction. Their findings were given directly to the ODNR and used as guidelines by
    the State hatcheries. There may have been more but I was only able to find one radio
    telemetry study done on Saugeye released into Ohio reservoirs. This study claims that
    Saugeye were not a risk to downstream habitats and ecosystems because they stayed up near
    where they came from (reservoir) Only one of the radio tagged fish traveled any distance
    downstream and it returned eventually to it's starting place. I believe that this study was too
    small and incomplete and I believe that significant numbers of Saugeyes have entered the
    river systems. Any time more than ten years ago an angler could expect to catch an
    occasional naturally occuring crossbreed in the Ohio River. Most anglers didn't know the
    difference between them and Sauger or Walleye, depending on the individual morphology of
    the fish caught. Today Saugeyes can comprise the lions share of the catch on some days. I
    think that the ODNR is a little nervous about admitting that the Saugeyes are breeding in any
    numbers at all because that would be admitting that they didn't do enough studies and could be
    considered at fault for the dilution of the Walleye gene pool in the Rivers. The scientific
    evidence is there but if you ask a Game Warden they will invariablly tell you that Saugeyes are
    sterile.
    A serious effort is on to develop a true Triploid Saugeye, one that is 100% sterile. Methods
    such as subjecting the eggs or newly hatched fry to elevated water temperatures for controlled
    time periods and the same with decreased water temps have been tried with moderate
    success. The best that they have been able to do is by increasing the atmospheric pressure in
    tanks but even this doesn't produce 100%. The following is a quote from a study titled "Use of
    Erythrocyte Measurements to Identify Triploid Saugeyes" by Mary Ann R. Garcia-Abiado,
    Conrad Dabrowski, James E. Christensen, and Serguisz Czesny from the School of Natural
    Resources, Ohio State University and by Przemyslaw Bajer from the University of Lodz,
    Poland.

    "The production of triploid saugeyes offers possible benefits to stocking programs and to
    aquaculture. Triploidity induction will prevent fertile diploid saugeyes from contaminating
    parental stocks and producing second generation hybrids. Extensive saugeye reproduction in
    the Ohio River (White & Schell 1995), Normandy Reservoir, Tennessee (Fiss et al. 1997), and
    in the Illinois River (Billington et al. 1997) has compromised the genetic integrity of local and
    downstream parental stocks by producing second generation hybrids."........"We currently lack
    a practical technique for fish managers or culturists to use in assessing the success of inducing
    triploidity in saugeye juveniles for reservoir stocking or grow out."

    The proof is there but for some reason the powers that be in our State Fisheries Departments
    don't want to fess up. Instead they allow the angling public to believe incorrect information,
    some of which originated in press releases given out by the ODNR when the stockings began,
    rather than educate the public with factual up to date information.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    More in a different vein:
    One of the most common problems with the identification of Saugeyes, Walleyes, and Saugers
    has to do with the lack of factual information provided to the angling public. Experienced
    anglers can easily tell the difference between Saugers and Walleyes but when you throw
    Saugeyes into the equation things can get confusing very quickly. Just as in humans, fish
    inherit genetic traits from both parents. Although the majority of Saugeye from any one mating
    of a female Walleye and a male Sauger will end up with the common physical characteristics of
    Saugeyes that we see in pictures and articles on the subject, there are always some that will
    favor "Mom" or some that will look more like "Dad".
    In one of our area reservoirs, Tappan Lake, Walleye stockings were stopped after 1976 and
    yearly Saugeye stocking were begun in 1990, with an experimental stocking done in 1986.
    Annual stockings have averaged from 300,000 to 600,000 fingerlings per year. Anglers today
    still claim to catch pure Walleyes here on occasion, although the odds against it are staggering.
    Walleye lifespans at this latitude average from 8 to 12 years, with old fish occasionally
    reaching 15 years of age. ( These figures are for our inland lakes and may be different for
    Erie) Even if there were an old female swimming around, genetically uncorrupted, the odds of
    her eggs being fertilized by another existing pure male Walleye are even more staggering,
    especially since Walleye spawning habits are not monogamous and several males may fertilize
    the eggs of any one female. If local anglers see no well defined saddle markings on the fish,
    they believe that it is a pure Walleye.
    In any waters where Walleye and Sauger coexist and have overlapping spawning habitat there
    will be a naturally ocurring population of Hybrids (Saugeyes). Most estimates for waters like
    the Ohio and Missouri River systems run about 4% of the total combined species. This 4%
    poses no threat to the gene pool of either parent species and can be reabsorbed. When the
    number of Saugeyes is increased dramatically by upstream stocking programs it becomes
    impossible to prevent eventual contamination of the parental species.
    The following is a quote from a study titled "Evaluation of Skin Pigmentation for Identifying
    Adult Saugers and Walleye-Sauger F1 Hybrids Collected from Lake Sakakawea, North Dakota."

    "Correct identification of brood fish from waters where sympatric species hybdidize presents a
    challenge to fisheries managers and hatchery biologists. Misidentification of brood stock can
    result in inadvertent hybridization and the failure of hatchery programs."
    We are seeing the results of such incorrect identification here in Ohio. Traditional inland
    Walleye lakes like Seneca and Salt Fork are now being stocked with Saugeyes. When
    questioned about the reasons for this, the ODNR blames anglers for releasing Saugeyes into
    the lakes and corrupting the existing Walleye populations. Salt Fork Lake had long been a
    "Mother Lake", one where hatcheries personell collected female Walleyes to strip eggs for the
    State hatcheries programs. One of the States largest hatcheries in just below the dam on
    Seneca lake. Some of the fry and fingerlings from the eggs harvested made their way back
    into these lakes through stocking programs. The Female Walleyes were identified by
    morphology (physical characteristics) by the hatcheries personell at the time of capture. Here
    is another quote from the same study quoted above. It is based on the capture of 143 fish
    from Lake Sakakawea, 14 of which (10%) turned out, under genetic testing, to be incorrectly
    identified as Sauger by using physical characteristics.
    "In the context of fish culture operations, the consequenses of a 10% error rate can be
    enormous. We used Hearns (1986) data to show how the genetic composition of the Sauger
    population of Lake Sakakawea could have been changed if the incorrectly identified fish were
    used as broodfish. Hearn (1986) crossed two F1 hybrid (Saugeyes) females with Sauger males
    and produced about 47,000 fingerlings. Of the 14 fish we identified as F1 hybrids eight were
    females, two were males, and the gender of four could not be determined. Given success
    comparable to Hearns(1986) about 188,000 fingerlings could be produced from the eight
    females. Hearn used one male to fertilize three females. Following this protocol, if the male
    hybrids were used as brood fish, a total of about 580,000 hybrid fingerlings could result."
    It seems far more likely that the presence of Saugeyes in lakes like Salt Fork and Seneca
    stem from misidentification of brood stock and subsequent stocking of hybrids rather than by
    fish released by a few anglers.
     
  6. Gheesh Ray......

    He only wanted to know if they tasted good :rolleyes:
    Yes.....they do is what I hear. Thanks for the info, I knew I could count on you. From what I was able to gleen I think my reply was correct ? Also I think thrown in the bag is when a saugeye is bred with a walleye, then it would have 1/4 sauger & 2/4 walleye genes, etc. Best to just bread it with your mix & toss into the grease !
    Can't wait to go fishing now, in 24 hours I'll be on the river with good company !! Yippee !
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2002
  7. 12.84 lb. Saugeye First Record of 2002

    Brian W. Bang of Galloway, OH, caught a new Ohio state record saugeye
    weighing 12.84 pounds from Alum Creek Lake in Delaware County on the night
    of January 26. The new record -- the first of 2002 -- was certified February 13.

    Mr. Bang was using a crankbait and spinning
    rod loaded with 8 lb. test line when he caught
    the 28 3/4-inch fish.

    Using scale samples, an Ohio Division of
    Wildlife biologist estimated the fish to be more
    than 10 years old.

    Biologist Steve Graham, fisheries supervisor
    at Wildlife District 1, identified Mr. Bang's record saugeye.

    The fish surpasses the previous saugeye state record by just 0.01 pounds.
    Fred Sulek of St. Clairsville, Ohio, held the former record, a 12.83 pound
    saugeye he caught at Clendening Reservoir November 19, 2001.

    Ohio state record fish are certified by the Outdoor Writers of Ohio All-Tackle
    Record Fish Committee. Assisting in the process are fisheries biologists with
    the Ohio Division of Wildlife.

    Br. Bang said he caught a saugeye weighing over 11 pounds just a few days
    earlier at the same lake.

    Photo courtesy of Steve Graham, Ohio Division of Wildlife
    [​IMG]


    http://www.outdoorwritersofohio.com./
     
  8. super surfer comes through again

    i think the linkmiester came covered pretty well covered the details.just glad i didn't have to read all that since i read it before:eek: :rolleyes: ;) as for the taste comparison,in my opinion(after eating a few hundred pounds of each) saugeyes are better,sweeter tasting than walleyes.:D
     
  9. Thanks for the info.

    I see from looking at some of the photos that saugeyes seem to have the same appearance as walleyes but don't have distinct markings. By that I mean they all have different markings with no two fish looking the same. I take it this is from the cross breeding.

    Also, 12+ lbs seems small for a state record. Walleyes get bigger. I would guess this is from the cross breeding or being a hybrid. Or you guys are just catching them too fast and they can't grow big enough.:D 12lbs is still a hog in anyones book though.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2002
  10. Gunrod

    the state record is not all that small when you consider the fact that it's only about 3 pounds and a couple ounces short of the walleye record.the world record is a little over 15,i think,which is 10 pounds shy of the walleye record.but you are right,in that the hybridizing accounts for the smaller size.i think this goes for most hybrid species.they will be somewhwere between the averge size of both parent species.the mottled coloring and small spots on the dorsal fin is the best way to distinguish them from a walleye.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2002
  11. I'm not not knocking a 12+lb fish at all. I just thought for a state record it would be kinda small campared to walleye. The only thing I had for comparison was Michigan. Michigan's record is 17+lb walleye and numerous walleye's were turned in for master angler awards around the 12lb mark and bigger with the largest being 15+lb.

    Here's the site: http://www.michigandnr.com/FISH/MASTERANGLER.ASP

    12's a huge fish none the less but I thought the record would be a little bigger. I'm sure there's one somewhere in the state that will beat it.
     
  12. Gunrod

    you're right about there being a bigger one somewhere.it's only a matter of time.last i heard,there has been at least one shocked up at alum since that one was caught.and i'm sure there are some in other lakes/streams in the state.here's my uncle with a previous ohio and world record caught in 1989 from the tailwaters of one of our resevoirs.just a little 10 1/4 pounder.


    [​IMG]
     
  13. I caught a bunch of 12'ers or less at pleasant hill friday afternoon. I couldn't get anyhting bigger to save my life.

    Jason
     
  14. 12'ers

    LOL,jason.that's been my story the last trip or two.:rolleyes:if they'd just gain few inches,i wouldn't be so hungry now :D
     
  15. I was happy though, they will make nice fish in a year

    J
     
  16. Rick, there was one at tappan or piedmont (can't remember which) that was shocked up to be around 34" and somewhere in the neighborhood of 16 or 17lbs!!! Take the world record that was caught out in Ft Peck Montana. It weighed in at 15.66lbs! Saugeye have only been around for 20 years, and walleyes what....forever? I look at it this way. Give em another 20 years to "adapt" to the area waters, and you are gonna see some HOGS caught.
     
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