[Deehntr56]

Interesting spin on this behavior- click on link highlighted to see what they are looking for.

PUBLIC ASKED TO REPORT ‘TAME’ GROUSE SIGHTINGS

03/02/2023

HARRISBURG, PA - Not every ruffed grouse across Pennsylvania is quite the same as the next. Some – though wild, undomesticated birds – might even be called “tame,” meaning they show little fear of or even act aggressively toward people, especially in spring and fall.

A #WildSciPA videoOpens In A New Window available on the Game Commission’s YouTube channel shows just what that looks like.

But does that behavior matter, to grouse and grouse management?

The Pennsylvania Game Commission is seeking the public’s help in answering that question. The agency – charged with perpetuating wildlife species including grouse over the long term – is conducting a ruffed grouse genetics study in cooperation with Pennsylvania State University. The research aims to determine whether the Commonwealth’s grouse population shows signs of splitting up into distinct subpopulations and if “tame” behavior is linked to genetics. The results of this study will ensure habitat management efforts are targeted to improve and maintain grouse population connectivity.

Accordingly, the Game Commission is encouraging Pennsylvanians to report the location of any “tame” grouse they see this spring by sending an email to [email protected]. That email should include the person’s name and phone number, date of the sighting, location of the encounter and a description of the grouse’s behavior.

Ideally, those sending in a report should also include GPS coordinates for the encounter site. If that information isn’t available, reporters should provide as much other detail about the location of the encounter as possible, listing things like the county and/or township, the name of the property (like a particular state game lands, for instance), the property address, the closest intersection and the like.
Game Commission staff may reach out to those who report encounters for additional information, if necessary.

Field staff will then visit those locations where “tame” grouse sightings occurred to capture birds and collect a genetic sample from each.

“You may be familiar with mail-order kits where a simple saliva sample or mouth swab can unlock all kinds of information about your own ancestry or information about the breed background of your dog,” said Game Commission grouse biologist Reina Tyl. “We will be sampling these ‘tame’ grouse in essentially the same way, swabbing their mouth and sending the swab off for genetic analysis.”

All grouse from which samples are taken will be released immediately afterward at the same sites they were captured.

The more birds the Game Commission can sample, the better. That’s why public participation is so important to this project, Tyl said. It’s really the key to success with this effort.

“Gaining a more complete understanding of the genetic diversity of Pennsylvania’s grouse population is critical to ensure proper management of our beloved state bird,” she added.

MEDIA CONTACT: Travis Lau - 717-705-6541

 

[bluedog]

Sounds like someone is doing a PhD thesis. 😁

 

[thornton]

Sounds like someone is doing a PhD thesis. 😁

Exactly my comment when this note arose elsewhere on another message-type board.....a study re tameness vs genetics is such a waste, graduate-based or not.
If it is the former then an advisor orta advise a bit more real world rather than theoretical...if, that is, the info is to deliver value more than simply filling in a box on a school record.

Almost as bad......as a member of the Ohio Wildlife Council recently and publicly stating, "I don’t think we should shoot any more grouse until we find out why they’re disappearing".
Really?....in 2023 there remains a question regarding the many factors of the decades long decline of the ruffed grouse in Ohio?...or elsewhere in the central Appalachians, for that matter.
More waste from the WC....as those reasons are well known, if the 60+ year-old lad who made the comment was paying attention.
The "nothing to see here, more Studies please" attitude evidenced by that WC member is either profound ignorance or yet another move to avoid doing the hard work and avoiding the harder decisions Bonasa U deserved....tense, deliberate.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

I would agree with the Wildlife Council member. I have been questioning for years why we have a season on a bird now so seldom seen (as if anyone could still find one to shoot!). We had plenty of grouse up until around 2005, then over a period of less than 10 years, they all disappeared. It didn’t happen over “decades”, but instead they disappeared rather quickly. I wish we knew why. I fear turkeys are following the same pattern, but I hope not.

 

[thornton]

Yes, the ruffed grouse decline in Ohio has been measured in decades💡💡💡....naturally, some areas were slower to feel the pinch, for several reasons, and many folks were not looking, as they were too busy shooting.
Many of the not-lookers were grouse hunters in prime areas.

*edited....directly to the "rather quickly disappeared" comment...... what happens as decline advances, tipping points increase....as each new tipping point happens and compounds other issues, the decline curve steepens and, if not aware, it may appear that all of a sudden "X" is gone.
It can involve....people seeing only what they wish to see.

Some folks tho were seeing issues enough in the early 90s to note change and needs at WNF development plan meetings....better late than never, I reckon.

I would agree that '06', for me, saw a steepening of the decline.....soon after that, when my own bird numbers dropped to below one bird moved/hr , I stopped.
Today, there are still those who move one bird/day and actually are happy to move that one bird....clearly not realizing what one or two ruffed grouse moved per day truly means...or, failing to understand the damage to the birds possible in late season, even w/o a scattergun being fired.

Whether or not a shutting down of ruffed grouse harvest in Ohio should happen....is a separate question....the problem I noted was a WC member so unaware of the history of a bird supposedly under his watch.
So, two issues to my eye.

Re season-gutting....
...the reality I see with that idea is far too many believe such an act will make a difference...as a stand-alone, or....thinking they look good jumping out of a sinking boat ie.."ok, we ended the season, nothing more we can do" type thoughts.
While the real but most difficult issue of habitat and valuing all critters as important gets set aside...again.
Then, some WC members, dnr people or the Public may simply be imagining that ruffed grouse can be 'managed' like deer or turkeys....but, nothing could be farther from the truth.

Fwliw....if he is actually interested, that WC member should push for a Study re ruffed grouse health.....not because of looking for a Reason for the grouse decline but because grouse health is one factor woefully short of interest....times have changed since Bump and Edminster.....we need to adjust our thoughts and turn away from the ideas of long ago made convenient by assumptions of one size fits all ruffed grouse management.
That...and nix tieing the grouse decline to pimping present day environmental politics.
The bird deserves to have their reality set above politics.

*edited

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

Well, I disagree. While the grouse population in 2005 may have been lower than we had in 1975, there were still plenty of birds. Five to ten years later, they were gone - completely. I suspect something such as West Nile was at play, but we may never know. Perhaps chemical exposure, or something else. Habitat did not degrade so much in a few years that grouse went extinct. We still have grouse habitat, but no grouse. Maybe studies currently being done on turkeys will give us a clue. It does not matter now about a grouse season - you can’t hunt ghosts.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

Incidentally, insects in my area declined at approximately the same time as grouse, and quail too. Hand scrubbing bugs off windshields was much harder in the early 2000s - not many on windshields by comparison today. Coincidence?

 

[thornton]

.... I suspect something such as West Nile was at play, but we may never know. ...

So do many suspect and hence updated health studies.....WN was found in NY grouse years ago.
I....suspect...WN weakens regarding breeding rather than kills but...?

Yes, we will have to disagree....I witnessed decline decades ago but, blame incorrectly fell to other stoops then, as I previously mentioned the imagined grouse cycle.
I also witnessed habitat aging up close and, again as before, habitat needs are more than good spots of cover....simply put, no one can escape the need of successional cover in volume for ruffed grouse booming...in any state.
That is precisely what delivered high ruffed grouse numbers to this state...unsustainable numbers, since Change happens.

You are, I'm afraid, off in reading grouse cover by taking a too narrow a look around you and are simply witnessing the fact that increased decline periods happen, based upon....Time in decline ...rather than by a nefarious agent causing problems.
You are witnessing decline factors compounding to a point of impossible recovery here....barring catastrophic change no one would wish, of course.

Insects?...I have seen change both ways.....fewer japanese beetles and mayfly hatches than in the 60s and more multi-colored Asian lady beetles and marmorated stink bugs.
Again....2005 defined or began nothing...2005 is simply a year on a fluctuating curve.....in this case, a curve downward in slope for Bonasa U.
You can not have it both ways.....one time acknowledging many factors in play and at another time blaming that nefarious world influencing ....whatever.
Decline factors of the bird are numerous and increase in number and effect as Time passes....Reality 101.

Again, the ruffed grouse deserved more than politics or being used for support of an agenda.
The bird deserved...an honest look and, a place.

Plus, all of that does not even touch upon the weakness of the bird itself, regarding ease of adapting to change in it's world.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

Your Reality 101 is certainly different from mine. Have you noticed the big grasshoppers we caught as kids are gone now? You know, the ones who spit “tobacco juice” when you caught them? Now all we have are a few smaller hoppers. Same can be said for the big yellow spiders who made big webs in the weeds - now they are much smaller and less common. And on and on. All coincidences?

Turkeys are declining rapidly now too, it appears. Just a few years ago they were everywhere. Now we see a very noticeable change, to the point where we are excited again to see one. I suppose the habitat has declined over the past couple of years….yeah, that must explain everything. At least for that bird, we hear studies are being done.

 

[thornton]

I still see a lot of the big orb weavers but do see fewer large grasshoppers.....'course, much has changed re agriculture, etc...more of that uncomfortable to admit reality of Change and some of which may benefit us all.

With corn, 3 or 4 rows of corn where one used to be....corn rows barren of the weeds which compete with the corn, new varieties....etc. etc....sadly, that appears to be all about real & imagined Progress and maximizing a result. Changes in cutting hay and so on.
All of which, and more, affect insects or bees, they have their own issues......from Progress, Change, , poisons, et al....not many do not understand how when one part of a whole changes then that affects the whole.
Everywhere.

No one is ignoring a decline of some insects, certainly not me...I am saying that the decline of the ruffed grouse does not result from a nefarious entity in 2005-ish.
Ruffed grouse are tightly tied to habitat along with a few other needs and despite your inability to understand early successional cover relentlessly changing or the bird's important use of it.
Habitat simply has fundamentally changed in volume/age and, as the other decline factors increased in effect over Time...we have a today, one where hurdles are more numerous and higher as the bird slips ever downward.
Not a new story but rather one as old as Time.
WV saw it in Canaan Valley, as but one location ...sorry, decades...ago.
Ohio is not unique and there is no unique black hat with the ruffed grouse in Ohio on which to build a political protest dream.

Turkeys...and deer, are not ruffed grouse in any measure.💡💡💡..Lord, hearing that implied gets old.
Your comparative in the discussion use of those two critters indicates you really do not know the bird and are indeed simply using it as an enabler to push forward a greater political play re the environment.
Some of that environmental concern I agree with.....the blindness to a bird's reality, I proudly do not.

Please consider not using the bird for your own purposes....Bonasa U has trouble enough.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

It’s not a political issue. I understand VERY well how cover evolves over time. I spend a large percentage of my time managing cover to enhance rabbit populations. You will never convince me the grouse completely disappeared in a decade because of habitat. There is to this day far too much excellent grouse habitat for me to buy that tired old argument. You are taking the easy way out, Thornton.

 

[thornton]

Nope...you apparently do not understand grouse cover nor are you able to understand Time affecting different changes within an existing decline of a species, as that understanding would not fit your agenda for a greater political environmental complaint.

Beyond that, IF you ever read my thoughts then you would see that it is I....who noted that many factors are responsible for the ruffed grouse decline here...never would I say only one is the cause.
Habitat is simply up there basically because it has been involved since the first tree was cut or the first farm square foot began to revert in this state.
Neither logging nor farm reversions are what once they were in Ohio....as but two examples of their importance.

As to convincing....you are correct, I can never convince anyone unwilling to realize just how little they know...if, they are blinded by some grand idea of earth's decline trumping an honest look at a bird facing increasing problems both out of their control and due to their own negatives they bring to the game.

I wish there was an easy out .....but, that would require ignoring the fundamentals of the ruffed grouse, the issues faced by the ruffed grouse and, perhaps most important, the history of the ruffed grouse.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

I’ve seen a pattern to your posts over the years. Always professing to know more than anyone else who comments. You use an academic tone to your responses out of habit to try to impress us with complex sentences and showy vocabulary. I hope that is satisfying for you.

Perhaps I am not the one who is “unwilling to realize just how little they know”? Perhaps I not the one “blinded” to what might really have happened to grouse?

I do not have the answer to what happened to Appalachian grouse, or even our turkey, if they truly are in a similar decline. (Note I have not mentioned anything about deer - you brought up deer). As I have said, I think there is more to the story of our birds than we understand at this time. Perhaps someday we will fill in the gaps to this mystery. If you want to make that a political issue, go ahead and knock yourself out, but know that Mother Nature does not play politics.

I am done with this nonsense. You win - or not.

 

[thornton]

I’ve seen a pattern to your posts over the years. Always professing to know more than anyone else who comments. You use an academic tone to your responses out of habit to try to impress us with complex sentences and showy vocabulary. I hope that is satisfying for you.

Perhaps I am not the one who is “unwilling to realize just how little they know”? Perhaps I not the one “blinded” to what might really have happened to grouse?

I do not have the answer to what happened to Appalachian grouse, or even our turkey, if they truly are in a similar decline. (Note I have not mentioned anything about deer - you brought up deer). As I have said, I think there is more to the story of our birds than we understand at this time. Perhaps someday we will fill in the gaps to this mystery. If you want to make that a political issue, go ahead and knock yourself out, but know that Mother Nature does not play politics.

I am done with this nonsense. You win - or not.

I am glad you see a pattern as it implies consistency of message.....a message folks often ignored out of a preference for...something else in which they themselves find value.
I simply believe it wrong to favor one over the loss to another....by hunter, dnr, whomever.
In that, I never favored the bird by ignoring it's own negatives playing into the decline or ignored grouse hunters and their portion of blame.
Honesty and hopeful steps forward demand an honest look.

Any "tone" is simply the manner I write....I have no need to impress, so no apologies. Messenger can always be easier to kick than an inconvenient message tho, that is clear on many issues.

Perhaps I am blinded by recognizing the ruffed grouse have a history....as does succession and in there never being one cause for any species decline, especially over Time.
I reckon I am ignoring asteroid impacts.
Your 2005-ish date is wrong, wrong by ignoring all that went on before and, which can be a quite natural progression. Especially when industries face challenges and Progress moves along on other tracks.....Ohio and elsewhere.
Booms fade.....and justly so....even critter booms.

I believe several folks have noted that more is going on with bird declines than habitat alone💡 over the long length of many declines....and, to more birds than only those which are hunted.
However, turkey...and deer...are different in their own blessings....once each hits a snag, which is an important point.
Recovery for them....has a pathway.
The pathway for ruffed grouse recovery....not so smooth or easily acceptable as the world, or paper/fiber demand, etc, changes and reality enters the central and southern Appalachians.

Ma Nature certainly does not play politics....humans clearly do and too often set aside history in the doing.

"Winning", for you?....l am sorry you feel that way, as it is about a critter losing and not having a voice, for me and that, is never nonsense.
Perhaps because it often means that We as humans lose when we too selfishly pick and choose when and what....wins.

 

[Beagle Huntsman]

The 2005 date is not wrong. It may not be exact for all of Ohio, but it is correct to say our grouse, Bonasa U you call them, disappeared relatively like the snap of fingers shortly after that approximate date. True, they may have been in gradual decline up to that time, but “SOMETHING” caused them to rather suddenly go quickly. I personally believe that same “SOMETHING” MAY BE affecting birds in general, and question if turkeys are experiencing the SAME. I hope we someday learn what “SOMETHING” was. I believe if the problem was habitat, as many say, we’d still have a few grouse in areas of excellent habitat, but we do not. That’s as succinct as I can be, in plain language.

 

[thornton]

As I noted, many blames for the decline exist, the timing of severity is related to a compounding of those blames....perhaps affected by, as also noted, health issues.

In plainer language, 2005 is but one point on a curve telling a sad story.

 

[Huntinpete]

Well, I disagree. While the grouse population in 2005 may have been lower than we had in 1975, there were still plenty of birds. Five to ten years later, they were gone - completely. I suspect something such as West Nile was at play, but we may never know. Perhaps chemical exposure, or something else. Habitat did not degrade so much in a few years that grouse went extinct. We still have grouse habitat, but no grouse. Maybe studies currently being done on turkeys will give us a clue. It does not matter now about a grouse season - you can’t hunt ghosts.

The 30 day flushes have been long gone. Grouse hunting in Ohio is only a memory to me as I thumb through my old photographs. It will take much research and a deep pocketbook for the return of ruff grouse in Ohio. It is not a priority with the ODNR because its not a money maker. No special permits were needed, just a Ohio hunting lic. Most birds were found on private property. Though it was much easier to gain permission from farmers to hunt grouse then deer. I was very rarely refused access to hunt, a fresh baked amish pie always helped. Ken Szabo's bi-monthly publication called "Grouse Tails" with members participation surveys I found to be the most accurate bird populations studies around.