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Miranda for Hunters and Fishermen?

8K views 23 replies 8 participants last post by  Saugernut 
#1 ·
Watching the show Northwoods Law last night about the heavy handed Maine game wardens, I noticed that every one they were trying to "bust", none of the suspects were read their Miranda rights or in any way informed they had the right to get counsel. I realize they are probably using actors but they were certainly demanding confessions on violations that could result in Jail time.

I believe we have some attorneys on this forum, some Law Enforcement and probably wildlife Officers at least reading. Is a hunter entitled to a lawyer before he tells a wildlife officer anything? Illegal immigrants have the right to keep quiet.

I have been stopped twice this week by cops for not having my dog on a leash!
 
#2 ·
Miranda must be read to someone before any accusatory questioning. OR anytime a reasonable person does not feel they are free to leave AND the LEO is going to ask questions.

You can be arrested and never read your rights if the LEO doesn't ask you questions after you are no longer free to go.

As an LEO its better safe than sorry- I read rights as soon as I get to the "grey" area between having to mirandize and not having to.
 
#3 ·
Miranda must be read to someone before any accusatory questioning. OR anytime a reasonable person does not feel they are free to leave AND the LEO is going to ask questions.

You can be arrested and never read your rights if the LEO doesn't ask you questions after you are no longer free to go.

As an LEO its better safe than sorry- I read rights as soon as I get to the "grey" area between having to mirandize and not having to.
Good Thread-

So, in your statement, when a Wildlife officer begins to question you in the field, you are saying that their Miranda rights have to be given?

I personally have been approached a few times, and questioned/asked about seeing my hunting license......or must there be additional questions asked before that can occur?
 
#4 ·
understand what I am saying is from a tv show. The game warden grabs two guys at a check station. He knows one had shot a deer during gun season but its now muzzleloader season and the other guy is checking in a doe. So the warden demands to see their guns, one a shotgun the other a muzzy then starts wondering who actually shot the deer. Then the warden drags the two guys out in the snow where the deer was killed. and starts comparing boot prints and asking a ton of questions.

Well its one thing for a warden to ask some questions at the check station but once the warden makes them return to the scene of the deer kill, I think the warden overstepped his rights and should have allowed them to seek counsel.

Whats everybody think? I think a wildlife officer must act the same as city police officer when it comes to questioning if you choose to remain silent.
 
#5 · (Edited by Moderator)
twice for not having your dog on a leash...you should have got a fine the 2nd time...i walk my dog almost every day and on a leash...and one thing that irks me is those that think theyre above the law and let their dog run free...especially in parks and here in the city...i have yet to see one person that can control their dog when it decides to come running over to us...some dogs are pit bulls,some dobermans or labs and other types...i wonder where the law is...i see some dogwalkers carrying clubs in case a free roamer attacks them or their dog...i have considered it but really dont like the idea to club a dog when i know its the owner that needs clubbing...but you got to do what you must to protect from injury...my dog is not an aggressive breed...border collies just are not fighters...those letting their dogs run off the leash create a lot of problems...no questions need asked...just right a ticket...

as for game wardens having to read miranda for asking for your license...why...i have yet to have had a regular cop do that when asking for my drivers license or proof of insurance...i do believe game wardens should have to adhere to the same procedures as regular police...i have no complaints...if i do have one its that there are not enough cops or game wardens...especially game wardens...:biggrin:
 
#6 ·
twice for not having your dog on a leash...you should have got a fine the 2nd time...i walk my dog almost every day and on a leash...and one thing that irks me is those that think theyre above the law and let their dog run free...especially in parks and here in the city...i have yet to see one person that can control their dog when it decides to come running over to us...some dogs are pit bulls,some dobermans or labs and other types...i wonder where the law is...i see some dogwalkers carrying clubs in case a free roamer attacks them or their dog...i have considered it but really dont like the idea to club a dog when i know its the owner that needs clubbing...but you got to do what you must to protect from injury...my dog is not an aggressive breed...border collies just are not fighters...those letting their dogs run off the leash create a lot of problems...no questions need asked...just right a ticket...

as for game wardens having to read miranda for asking for your license...why...i have yet to have had a regular cop do that when asking for my drivers license or proof of insurance...i do believe game wardens should have to adhere to the same procedures as regular police...i have no complaints...if i do have one its that there are not enough cops or game wardens...especially game wardens...:biggrin:
I'm not a lawyer but believe it's about what they need to have in a court appearance. Ask a question and get an answer without Miranda Rights, answer can't be used. Miranda Rights read to suspect, answer can be used.

As far as showing your hunting license or drivers license, I don't have a problem with that. For me it's better to keep your mouth shut or ask them if I am being arrested. If I am, I want to hear my rights read. After that I call my attorney and keep my mouth shut.

I've never been arrested and don't want to be.

RGJZ06
 
#7 ·
Amazing how many honest folks who may have made equally honest mistakes look for loopholes these days(often with kids nearby)....even more who cop attitudes at any interaction with a game officer who is noting a potential issue.
Losing the attitude or learning from the past would be wiser moves and better lessons than boning up on legality wedges.

With that said, those warden shows do not always showcase wardens particularly well.
The look of the Maine warden nearly panting with excitement in the brush near the grouse decoy was especially silly.
But, I reckon those shows do need moments of created drama to hold viewer interest.
 
#8 ·
Amazing how many honest folks who may have made equally honest mistakes look for loopholes these days(often with kids nearby)....even more who cop attitudes at any interaction with a game officer who is noting a potential issue.
Losing the attitude or learning from the past would be wiser moves and better lessons than boning up on legality wedges.

With that said, those warden shows do not always showcase wardens particularly well.
The look of the Maine warden nearly panting with excitement in the brush near the grouse decoy was especially silly.
But, I reckon those shows do need moments of created drama to hold viewer interest.
Jesse James kicked them out when they tried to inject controversy into his family, (like he needed any more). Dog and Beth the bounty hunter shut them down as well. Wardens isn't like watching the Kartrashens you know. :coco:

RGJZ06
 
#9 ·
Good Thread-

So, in your statement, when a Wildlife officer begins to question you in the field, you are saying that their Miranda rights have to be given?

I personally have been approached a few times, and questioned/asked about seeing my hunting license......or must there be additional questions asked before that can occur?
No not before any questioning....before any ACCUSATORY questioning. "Do you have a hunting license?" Isn't considered accusatory.

Its a fine line. And eventually a case will get taken to supreme court and really shake things up for wardens

Sent from my C5155 using Ohub Campfire mobile app
 
#10 ·
I'm not a lawyer but believe it's about what they need to have in a court appearance. Ask a question and get an answer without Miranda Rights, answer can't be used. Miranda Rights read to suspect, answer can be used.

As far as showing your hunting license or drivers license, I don't have a problem with that. For me it's better to keep your mouth shut or ask them if I am being arrested. If I am, I want to hear my rights read. After that I call my attorney and keep my mouth shut.

I've never been arrested and don't want to be.

RGJZ06
yup nothing wrong with asking for a hunting license...i think we just need more gw's out there doing that...with a lil snooping...:biggrin::biggrin:
 
#12 · (Edited by Moderator)
"So, in your statement, when a Wildlife officer begins to question you in the field, you are saying that their Miranda rights have to be given?

I personally have been approached a few times, and questioned/asked about seeing my hunting license......or must there be additional questions asked before that can occur? _"

Just like a drivers license, ccw permit, identiication like a passport are probably covered specifically in the revised code. I am talking about the next step after wards like "show me where you were standing when you shot the deer" or lets go look where you were hunting, "I want to see your gun when its NOT in your permission. Or maybe when the warden says empty your pockets.


Its like small town cops using a burned out license plate bulb want to completely search you vehicle and you have done absolutely nothing wrong to justify an ILLEGAL search. The local fuzz here used to carry an empty beer can when they stopped high school kids, to threaten the kids with jail claiming they found the beer can in a car.
Border collies can be extremely aggressive, like the 5 where I hunt. they terrify coyotes.
 
#13 · (Edited by Moderator)
No not before any questioning....before any ACCUSATORY questioning. "Do you have a hunting license?" Isn't considered accusatory.

Its a fine line. And eventually a case will get taken to supreme court and really shake things up for wardens

Sent from my C5155 using Ohub Campfire mobile app
That is my take. It's like the patrolman pulling me over(For just cause) and asking me to see my drivers license. I also would agree on accusatory questioning- that is where I believe the persons being asked the questions-need to be given their Miranda rights-

Here's a thread on another forum talking about this subject-it's actually officers and wildlife officers talking about it.....

game warden or state police

Here's a WO from Idaho giving his take on it-Keep in mind, this is an Idaho WO.......

Wow, after reading all the replies it makes me feel like I should be able to walk on water and shoot lightening bolts from my *****. Now for the rest of my reply...I'm not big into legal wording I'll try to explain as best I can (also just finished a 16 hour day so my mind might not be working right...spelling might suck too ).

We do not have any authority that allows us to violate 4th amendment rights. We are constantly obtaining search warrants to enter houses to look for illegal wildlife etc, just like any "regualar" cop does for drugs etc. We have to play the articulable suspicion and probable cause game like every other cop. Realize that every court, judge, prosecutor, and jury pool will be different all across the country. Some may allow more questionable actions than others will. If a game warden truly entered a house w/o a warrant then there is either (A) exigent circumstances or (B) never gone to a supreme court ruling concerning the entry. My agency has lost some big poaching cases because of bad search warrant entries.

Now for the "more power" aspect. In a way we kinda do when it comes to checking licenses and check stations. That has come about through a variety of court rulings that basically boil down to our duties of fish and wildlife preservation and protection. Joe Public MUST prove to me that he has a fishing license if I see him fishing. Joe Public must also stop at a checkstation if he has been hunting etc. so we can verify that wildlife is being preserved and protected properly. In comparison you can't just pull a car over to check a drivers license. Because a lot of laws/rules are federally based we also carry federal ID through US Fish and Wildlife service. Alot of waterfowl and migratory bird stuff is federal. This is also our basis from where we can legally cross a state line to pursue a wildlife violation.

As to seizing firearms. It is not a violation of 2nd amendment. We are not prohibiting that person to own a gun, the gun(s) we seize are evidence in a crime. That also goes for ATV's, Campers, Trucks, etc. If they were used in commiting a wildlife crime they are evidence. The bigger the case the more those kind of seizures occur.

As to finding non-wildlife crime. That depends on what authority the "game warden" has in his state. I am a fully sworn certified peace officer just like any city, county, or state cop. I can write speeding tickets, arrest DUI's, seize meth found in a search etc. The difference is we focus on fish and wildlife. If we come across a non-F&G situation we will try to get a county or state cop to take care of it. This is MAINLY because defense attorneys will have a field day with us on the stand because of the "lack of experience" with DUI, drugs, etc. Same reason a deputy or state cop will try to get one of us if they stumble on a illegal wildlife situation. Avoid giving a defense attorney any "ammo".


nuff said
in ohio are game warden's and DNR'S agents (department of natural resourses') are the same. they do not have to wear uniforms or show they badge until needed. They have crazy power kinda like above the law i guess you can say. They can give speeding tickets, to arrest you for murder.
i have seen someone go to jail from a DNR acting like a fishermen during spawning season. standing next to a guy that was snagging fish and keeping them. to a guy in a tree stand 60 yards away from me. tell a hunter (DNR AGENT) to get outta here or he was going to put a arrow through you!!!
 
#14 ·
That is my take. It's like the patrolman pulling me over(For just cause) and asking me to see my drivers license. I also would agree on accusatory questioning- that is where I believe the persons being asked the questions-need to be given their Miranda rights-

Here's a thread on another forum talking about this subject-it's actually officers and wildlife officers talking about it.....

game warden or state police

Here's a WO from Idaho giving his take on it-Keep in mind, this is an Idaho WO.......
nothing wrong with doing some undercover...i applaud them when theyre out there busting the bad guy...thats what we pay them for...these guys are the heros...not the criminal...some here seem to want it the other way around...:D
 
#15 ·
That is my take. It's like the patrolman pulling me over(For just cause) and asking me to see my drivers license. I also would agree on accusatory questioning- that is where I believe the persons being asked the questions-need to be given their Miranda rights-

Here's a thread on another forum talking about this subject-it's actually officers and wildlife officers talking about it.....

game warden or state police

Here's a WO from Idaho giving his take on it-Keep in mind, this is an Idaho WO.......
Actually the reply of the WO is incorrect in many ways. The main way is that they don't have any special powers to violate the 4th amendment.

SEE ORC 1531.13 & 1531.14 which regulate the right to enter private land.

Pretty clearly 4th amendment violations. And I have spoken to more than 1 WO who says they try not to abuse that power because they don't want a case getting to the Supreme Court.
 
#16 ·
Actually the reply of the WO is incorrect in many ways. The main way is that they don't have any special powers to violate the 4th amendment.

SEE ORC 1531.13 & 1531.14 which regulate the right to enter private land.

Pretty clearly 4th amendment violations. And I have spoken to more than 1 WO who says they try not to abuse that power because they don't want a case getting to the Supreme Court.
If you re-read his post, he states they have no authority to violate the 4th amendment, but in regards to checking licenses and check stations they have "more power" in that aspect- read his statement below that on "Joe Public".
 
#17 ·
If you re-read his post, he states they have no authority to violate the 4th amendment, but in regards to checking licenses and check stations they have "more power" in that aspect- read his statement below that on "Joe Public".
Regardless of what his post says, If entering private land for a warrantless, probable cause-less, reasonable suspicion-less search isn't a violating the 4th, then idk what is.

Ohio case law says that the mere fact a WO sees a pile of camo in your driveway and a couple guys standing outside a truck, then they have the right to enter the property to enforce game laws.

As a police officer who strives to uphold everyone's constitutional rights, it sickens me to see LE given that kind of unchecked power.

That said, I've met a lot of WO's in the last few weeks and they are really growing on me. Much more professional, law abiding officers since they no longer send them to OSP academy.
 
#18 ·
Regardless of what his post says, If entering private land for a warrantless, probable cause-less, reasonable suspicion-less search isn't a violating the 4th, then idk what is.

Ohio case law says that the mere fact a WO sees a pile of camo in your driveway and a couple guys standing outside a truck, then they have the right to enter the property to enforce game laws.

As a police officer who strives to uphold everyone's constitutional rights, it sickens me to see LE given that kind of unchecked power.

That said, I've met a lot of WO's in the last few weeks and they are really growing on me. Much more professional, law abiding officers since they no longer send them to OSP academy.
Doesn't that fall under the "more power" aspect?;) and I agree on the what the 4th amendment stands for. Unfortunately, I think in some aspects and in some instances the "gray area" like you describe is used. Was their probable cause and a search warrant required?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[69]

The Fourth Amendment guards against unreasonable searches and seizures, along with requiring any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted as a response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, which is a type of general search warrant, in the American Revolution
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
Doesn't that fall under the "more power" aspect?;) and I agree on the what the 4th amendment stands for. Unfortunately, I think in some aspects and in some instances the "gray area" like you describe is used. Was their probable cause and a search warrant required?
In that case no there was never a warrant issued or applied for. Reasonable suspicion is what would be required to enter the property, probable cause would be required for a search. The dopes in this circumstance ratted on themselves and were cited for not having a temp tag attached to a deer (although the deer had been called in and a conf# given) it wasn't attached.

Reasonable suspicion is the legal standard we have to believe a crime has been or is being committed. Probable cause is what we need for search/seizure.

Reasonable suspicion is when based on training and experience, a reasonable person would believe a crime has been committed. pretty simple. In this case it was the camo and truck. HOWEVER translate that to police officers. If I see a guy wearing a "STONED" shirt, a high times magazine, and a POTHEAD bumper sticker- the courts have ruled that that is not reasonable suspicion to start a marijuana investigation.

As for "more power" sounds like a semantics game to me:whistle:
 
#20 ·
its the states wildlife that the laws are written for...i'd think thats the reason they have a little more power to go onto private property...just as aep has rights to dig up my lawn or the other utilitiy companies do...if its non emerg.they will let me know in advance but if its an emerg...theyre busting down fences if they have to...:D
 
#21 ·
its the states wildlife that the laws are written for...i'd think thats the reason they have a little more power to go onto private property...just as aep has rights to dig up my lawn or the other utilitiy companies do...if its non emerg.they will let me know in advance but if its an emerg...theyre busting down fences if they have to...:D
The more I think about it, That's actually not a terrible comparison. Its not dead on but eh...

And for the record I'm all for more Game Wardens, because I'll be applying the next time they have openings in my area :)
 
#23 ·
Ok so I read everything here and thank the officer for his reply. However! So, we hunt Ohio and other places and hunt duck and goose in NC. My brother and I go out hunting ducks and happen to be in a cove on a lake near some homes. Birds come in and we shoot and the locals get pissed because they like the ducks and start yelling at us. When someone says something nicely no problem, but cursing and yelling when we are legally shooting is bs, over water, in a boat, engine off, forward motion stopped, sitting there. That is bs. So some more ducks come in and we shoot and the homeowner goes irate and calls conservation. We feel it isn't worth the hassle and we lack to move. That's what happened.

Fast forward to conservation offficers. We are flying up the lake, it is big and my boat does about 55 mph and we are heading back to our dock. We pass another dock not to far from the cove we were in and were about 1500 yards away heading perpendicular to the boat ramp. Apparently officers were there trying to signal us to come in but we really didn't see it or pay attention as we were talking and looking ahead. So they put in a boat and come after us. We see the boat coming behind us with lights and stop the boat and shut the motor to see what's up and then the bull**** starts.

I guess they were pissed we made them come out to us. 2 officers. They ask for license, ok np. They ask to see guns for max 3 shells again np. They check ammo for non toxic, again np. Standard. And they check hip, we got it all. Next they check for boat safety nonsense, fire extinguisher, throw pillow, flare, life jackets, all ok. Again nothing wrong except they are annoyed we are in a ski boat hunting and that nothing is wrong and that we made them get us. Whatever. But here is where it gets fd up.

One officer comes on my boat, uninvited, and tells us to follow their boat back to the dock way back where they claimed they called us over??? I asked the officer if I was under arrest and he asked me why I would ask that, my answer was because you are standing in my boat and he said no, we just want to ask some questions? That is bs. So we don't have much choice, we follow them back and there are 7 officers including the two with us waiting at the dock. Wtf? They tell us to get off the boat and when we do, it wasn't warm and I didn't have shoes on, they say get your shoes??? Again wtf. So I ask again? Why? Am I being arrested? They say no, we just have questions... they split my brother and I up and the bs starts in ernest. They ask how many ducks I shot, it was 4 which was max and they ask are u sure.i say yes, same in questioning my brother and we are getting pissed. 15 mins already. Then they tag team us with stupid questions, where did you shoot exactly on the lake, I said a few places and they said tell us exactly where? That is bs. So we gave general areas. Next they ask how we shot, I said look we follow the rules, we make sure the boat is off and forward motion is stopped, then we wait. So they say we're you moving at all? I said I guess sideways as the wind was blowing us slowly into a cove. They say, wind doesn't blow u in a cove only out of it?? Seriously? So I say really, then why don't we go there in the boat and sit there and see which way it blows us? That officer walks away.

Another comes over and starts asking me bs questions. Do u think it is ethical to hunt in a ski boat? I say why not? He says do u think it is ethical, I say yes because they can see me better. He leaves. Another comes over.

Where is your cameo? I saw why, is it the law to have to wear camo? He says no but do you think it is ethical to hunt without camp? I say I don't know, is it illegal? No answer, he walks away.

Next one, asks me if I think it is ethical to shoot a deer in the water? Wtf? We aren't deer hunting so I say no, it is illegal. And he says would u shoot one if it stepped on land right after swimming to shore. I say sure if it is on land and not in the water why not. He says you don't have a problem with that? No, what is the difference of that or sitting in a tree stand waiting for one to walk in. And then more stupid questions. 40 mins now.

Finally, they walk us back to the boat and say they don't think it's right for us to have maxed out in one day, seriously? Then one officer says people hunt all season and don't max out and I say so what, maybe they sleep. His response was we know you were in that cove hunting where the local yelled at us and he is retiring soon but if we go back in that cove again, they will pull us out again and do this all over again. Then we were let go. No tickets, no violations, nothing.

So, based on all the above this completely pissed us off and clearly was off the charts bull****. I even complained to their leutenant when I met him on a youth hunt with my sons and he blew off the incident because he said he was there, not with us but up top where we didn't see him.

Now I typically like law enforcement and have friends who are police but this left a very bad taste in my mouth for conservation officers. I spoke with a lawyer and he said next time ask if I am being detained and if the answer is no, say you are leaving. But this begs the question from this thread, if I say and do that do I risk arrest for not answering questions? I don't mind checks for the law but ethic questions? Who gives a rats ass what an officer thinks is ethical? Ethics is an opinion, not the law and I don't see an officers place in doing what they did saying bs ethics crap. My ethics may be different than theirs, we didn't break any laws so who are these conservation officers to bust our balls like that? Their job is the law, nothing more, did we break it or not and not threatening us to stay out of a cove because their buddy lives there and doesn't like us there.

And I wish I could say this is isolated but once in PA deer hunting on land with permission a local ******* didn't like us hunting there and called conservation on us there too. They pulled us out of our tree stands to walk with them back to the truck which we did and again no violations but when my friend put his rifle on the tire of the truck, the officer said if that is loaded I am giving u a citation for hunting from a vehicle. Seriously? U pulled us out of our tree stands to follow u here and u pull that ****? The gun was unloaded so no citations but that again was bs. I will never hunt in PA again over that. Let them lose my out of state money.

So, based on the above, what can I do? Can I refuse to follow them back to the dock with the boat? I think not. The officer didn't have a search warrant, so why was he on my boat uninvited? Why did I have to answer their questions? Law doesn't say I have to know exactly where on the lake I hunted? Wtf?
 
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