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Manditory Bowhunter education????

Discussion in 'Ohio Whitetail Deer Hunting' started by Basementdweller, Dec 19, 2002.

  1. Bowsite had a problem with this post I have no idea why??

    I would like to see it manditory for everyone participating in archery season be required to have a bowhunter education card. No Grandfathering.....The licensing agents must verify you have both a ohio hunter safety card and bowhunter card before selling you a license and card. The problem with that is landowners don't buy tags soooooo that wont work... Any thoughts?

    My thought behind this is my safety.....Lets face it there are a lot of Wallyworld instant hunters out there......At least they would get some training before they hit the woods.
     
  2. I would be mostly against it. I want to see nothing whatsoever that would stand as yet another barrier to having more people enjoy the sport of hunting, especially bowhunting.
     

  3. I am 100% for it. The only barier is to the Wallyworld instant hunters.
    No better way to improve our bowhunting than to educate new and old hunters on bowhunting that have not been previously exposed to Bowhunters Ed.
     
  4. The hunter saftety course I took my son to had a segment on bowhunting.....I believe gun hunting is more dangerous than bow hunting...So I think if they learn saftey with a gun, that should suffice...Now more on Bow hunting ethics etc would not be bad.
     
  5. no way we are already loseing hunters to so many things
    if you were to do this we would lose many more
    we are hunters not test takers
     
  6. Not being from Ohio but would really like to bow hunt there one season how would mandatory bow hunting education affect a nonresident hunter, I took a Hunter Education class that is good nation wide. Los of staes require that if you are a non res that you must have proof of successfully completing a hunter education class regaurdles of your age.
     
  7. I don't think it would make a difference. You'd still have people sleeping through the Saturday class and getting the minimal score to pass. Once he or she got the card they would be "Certified Bowhunters". The course will not change any one hunters up bringing or ethics.

    The only way to correct slob newbie hunters is through leadership and mentoring. Next time you see that guy or gal buying a new bow, crossbow of gun try striking up a converstation. Talk to them about hunting and ethics. Who knows mabye you'll make a new friend or you might even get an invite to hunt a new property. Take your kids hunting. Take your kid's friends hunting too. When you do, make sure to explain why you don't tresspass, take "sound shots" or take more game that you are legally allowed.

    You are the key to the future of hunting. Even if you only influence one person out of a hundred they you are on the right track.

    Thunderflight
     
  8. It's a good Idea

    I took the state course in 1998 just because i felt it would be a bonus to have in my wallet when trying to obtain bowhunting tags in other states. the course is simple and straight forward for anyone with hunting experience and a few braincells. I help a friend procedd deer (roughly 1500 per season) and I will say without a doubt there are more clueless deer hunters than knowledgable ones out the these days. Deer com to us in all forms from undressed to partiallt skinned to half dressed, to rotted (because someone somewherer told the guy that he had to hang the deer for a week). Basic field preparation is taught in the course and I feel everyone should take it if not watch an informational video prior to obtaining any large game license so they have practical knowledge of where to start. Pride aside, it's just a good idea, takes an afternoon, and costs a couple bucks!
     
  9. You cant teach someone ethics...

    I quote:

    "without a doubt there are more clueless deer hunters than knowledgable ones out the these days"

    This is the attitude thats putting a sour taste in my mouth...."everyone is clueless except me, my buddy, and Ted Nugent....and i am not so sure about my buddy".
    Dweller, you and I have chatted before and i agree with you most the time....I know your heart is in the right place with this one...BUT,..i dont think ethics is something you can teach another adult...you CAN teach Laws and safety. Morals and ethics need to start young...thats what parenting is all about. As far as a special bowhunting course....since there is already a safety course required...maybe like someone else said, they could dedicate a couple hours to it. i dont think making it an additional requirement would help stop un-ethical hunting and would be another hurdle for the ethical ones.
    My .02

    Mitch
     
  10. Thunderflight excellent post. Very well said.

    This particular subject is always poorly defined when it is discussed. Allow me to explain...

    When you discuss a "class" on bowhunting "education" what is the goal in specific terms? Is it safety? Then where does the mandate of safety end? If we are going to mandate safety, shouldn't the use of full body harnesses be mandated also? That is probably the single largest cause of injuries and death in bowhunting right?

    What about the various climbing systems? Shouldn't we define and mandate what is safe in the way of tree stands and what is not? How about climbing steps and there installation? Wait! Aren't some trees safer than other to put a stand in? How high should we "allow" you to climb?

    There is no end to what you could mandate by codified law in the name of safety.

    Are we going to include a discussion of "ethics?" If so, what will be the parameters of such a discussion? And I will repeat what others have already said...you cannot mandate ethics, period...no more than you can madate morality to any meaningful or measurable degree. ======Here's an example: You shoot a big game animal, it runs onto the neighbors property, a property for which you do NOT have permission to hunt, and you know that you absolutely cannot get permission to hunt there. Do you track the animal and try to recover it anyway? I promise you that the answers from every hunter that considers himself "ethical" will vary widely.

    One of the constants in hunting with any type of weapon is that there are too many "slobs" out there. TOO MANY guys are very quick to criticize others and essentially condemn them wholesale, while at the same time, they will tell you that they and their buddies would never do such things. That is damaging and unfair in my opinion.

    Bowhunting safety course DO exist. If someone feels the need to take it, or feels that their kids should take it, it is available now. Those that do not need it, do not have to waste their time.

    Lastly, bowhunting is not brain surgery. It is not that hard to do the right things and hunt safely. Most people that are not doing those things, will not. Taking a class will not make the "honest" or force them to hunt safely.

    Yes, there are occasionally ill-prepared "instant hunters" out there, but they are a very very tiny percentage of the bowhunters in the field. They are usually not very successful when they try to hunt without practicing. They quickly learn
    that the sport requires discipline and practice. At that point, they almost always start learning and practicing in earnest, or they gradually give it up.

    The overwhelming majority of bowhunters are disciplined, dedicated sportsman. The average guy that wants an easy kill isn't going to pick up a pointy stick, he's going to purchase a firearm. There is nothing wrong with that either. Some people just don't want to mess with what seems like rather complicated equipment, or they cannot or do not want to invest the time.

    I say leave things as they are.
     
  11. vc1111... you are debating ethics and the law. Is it ethical to break a law? Is it ethical to break a law you disagree with?

    It is against the law for you to do anything on private property that you do not own with out written permission period. If you trespass and recover a game animal is it an ethics, moral question or a legal question.

    Is is ethical to shoot a deer if you run the risk of not being able to recover it because of trespassing laws??? I know alot of guys hunt 5 and 10 acre lots and there is no way they can recover the deer on their own property. So is it ethical to hunt it?

    Is it ethical to send a new hunter into the woods without proper training? Since the family structure has pretty much broken down in the United States the state should mandate a basic training. Lets face it the guys going it the woods now do not have the benifit of grandfathers and fathers mentoring them for the most part. I know of a handful of 1st time hunters whose fathers did not hunt.

    we can debate ethics and morality all day.

    Lastly you are forgetting the crossbow guy. It is not a barrier to hunting. I want the horton wallyworld guy to at least have a clue entering the woods where I am hunting. It is my life after all.

    I think as a percentage of the population hunter numbers are getting smaller.

    How many more guys have to be killed during bow season before you get a clue?

    lastly....I like to believe that the bowhunter is the supreme hunter. We do it better, longer and more efficently than our gun toting brethren. I would like it to remain that way.
     
  12. Lance

    Lance Super Mod Mod

    A real dilemma

    In many ways I'd love to see this happen but ireally don't think it will and I'm not sure it would be successful. If we're teaching laws and not ethics, probably better than 50% of the hunters out there have had a safety class at this point. It would be interesting to see some statistics on hunter age and experience as it relates to # of accidents in the woods. I wonder if it draws a parallell to turkey hunting accidents, they usually aren't the new hunters but the ones that have been in the woods 10-20 years. They think they can take some shortcuts because they are so confident in the "been there done that I know what I'm doing" mentality. Ethics is the part that needs taught but like mentioned above, saddly I'm not so sure that adults will let another adult teach them ethics.
     
  13. vc1111,

    The opportunity to learn more about your sport is not a barrier. It is as I said, an opportunity. I am for mandatory bowhunter education for all bowhunters and crossbow hunters in Ohio. And I have only one course in mind. The course offered by the National Bowhunter Education Foundation. Check out the web site at http://www.nbef.org. This course is already widely known and accepted throughout the USA and has been around for many years.

    This course is more than just a safety course. Safety is part of it, but it also covers shot placement, blood trailing, analizing your arrow after the shot to determine exactly what part of the deer the arrow penetrated, and much much more. All of these are very important if you are going to bowhunt or crossbow hunt and do it ethically and succesfully. Anyone going to hunt deer in Ohio with bow or crossbow must know these basics before becoming a succesful bowhunter or crossbow hunter.

    vc1111, I don't know if you bowhunt or crossbow hunt or if you do, how long you have done it. I'm not trying to slam you but it sounds to me like you have not done much of it or are just very mis-informed. Unfortunatly we have a lot of instant hunters out there during bow season in Ohio. This is due to the ever increasing popularity of the crossbow. literally you can go to the store in the morning, buy a crossbow, take it home and sight it in and be hunting with it that night. According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2002
  14. Arrow1

    Quote : The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.


    I disagree with that comment. Yes the crossbow is becomming very popular among hunters there is not arguement there. With any piece of hunting equitment takes some skill and practice. I would say 90 to 95 % of bowhunters (including crossbow) take much time in sighting their bows in) I do not know anyone who has a crossbow who does not practice with it all the time. I have 2 crossbows and a compound and I spend more time with the crossbow.

    Instead of praising all the good things about hunters we always focus on the bad. Sure its good to focus on the flaws but this is getting right back into a crossbow debate. Also yes Im sure there are more kills with a crossbow then a traditional but if you have noticed the limit in a lot of counties this year went up to 3 deer instead of 2. I dont see any problems with that at all the population is still rapidly growing.
     
  15. yep zfish we all need to unite . Support each other regardless of what our style of hunting is. I wouldnt mind taking a bow hunter course so I would get more hands on knowledge from an instructor. I also see if a course would become mandatory that the state then would impose a fee on people who bowhunt also. That would lead to more fees and more restrictions. The state is coming out with a new hunter's ed manual that is more suited to our state. Lets see what it is like ;)
     
  16. Anytime the word mandatory is used we are all losers, in this country were are entitled to certain rights, with these rights come certain risks. Are you people for taking classes on other things, we can take classes on boating safety, there are boating accidents all the time in the summer, are you yourself prepared to take these bow hunting courses. ... what about shot gun classes, muzzle loading classes, each requires different skills and knowledge. Are you prepared to know the distance of each round you fire .. the foot pounds of energy commonly needed to cleanly kill, what about the debate of small fast projectile over a big slow one that creates a larger hole. What about the burning rates of black power. Are you prepared to take classes on ethics of fishing, care of fish, litter. What about classes to learn how to repair your boat in case you are stranded ... people just died last week in fla. because of a simple malfunction. It is easy too have answers while you are perched on a high chair. But the simple fact is you just can't teach some one basic common sense. So do these people that you deem lacking in common sense somehow have less rights that you?:confused: :confused: . If you don't feel safe in the woods..... then wouldn't common sense tell you to stay out of the woods:confused: :confused:. We as sportsman have enough people telling us how and when to do something and enough people trying to steal our rights. But then again if we are all in class all the time, maybe the antis will have their way. we will be far too busy studying learning how to hunt or fish:confused: :confused: . I guess the bottom line I am trying to draw is people make mistakes, and trying to make everyone like you is just another mistake people make. The sad fact is that there are too many hunters in the woods today all crammed into one week of gun season, those that can't get a deer with a gun try to extend the season with a crossbow .. this leads to more people in the woods bow hunting than bow hunters would like. Why don't we try to end the over crowding by extending the gun season a week, this will get some of the gun hunters out of the woods with their crossbows, then the people who enjoy using crossbows and bows will have their time. Too many hunters also has a positive effect. It means that the sport is growing, and every year there is one more hunter that means there is one more person standing up for ALL of our rights. The are no real answers, classes help teach basics, but classrooms can't control how a person will react to outside forces such as cold, rain, adrenaline and over anxiousness. People have to take driving test and we all know that everyone is a perfectly safe driver now don't we.
     
  17. I enjoy debating these types of idea because we all learn a thing or two.

    Basement Dweller, you need to read my post again. I asked a series of questions that lead directly and most appropriately to a discussion of ethics and law. The crux of the matter is this: Where do we draw a line on “mandating” things?

    Unless you’ve been “grand-fathered in” by having previous hunting experience, no one in Ohio can be licensed to hunt without taking an approved Hunter Safety Course. This thread is to discuss additional barriers specifically aimed at bow hunters. I have respectfully disagreed and stated the reasons why.

    You state: “Lastly you are forgetting the crossbow guy. It is not a barrier to hunting. I want the horton wallyworld guy to at least have a clue entering the woods where I am hunting. It is my life after all.”

    Now that makes sense to me. You obviously have an axe to grind with crossbow hunters, and you’d like to make it more difficult for them to hunt in the same woods with you.

    “lastly....I like to believe that the bowhunter is the supreme hunter. We do it better, longer and more efficently than our gun toting brethren. I would like it to remain that way.”

    Your motive then is not so much about safety, ethics, or the law for that matter…its about crossbows. You are not, in my opinion, addressing the issue from the prospective of fairness. Your slant is clearly aimed at crossbow hunters. Then why not just make it for only crossbow hunters? Why not lay all your cards on the table. The issue of crossbow is a non-issue to this archer. They are welcome in the field with me. The crossbow is legal in Ohio. End of debate.

    Lastly, I have to call you on this one: “How many more guys have to be killed during bow season before you get a clue?”

    First, and most importantly: If you cannot address me without getting personal perhaps you should refrain from such discussions. I came here to relax, learn things, and most importantly make friends. I hope you and I can become friends. Let’s play nice, OK?

    Secondly, if there was any semblance of a problem with guys getting “killed during bow season,” we wouldn’t be having this conversation. The State of Ohio would have already mandated bow hunter safety. Please show me any definitive proof that hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands are even so much as injured, let alone killed, in Ohio to warrant a MANDATE. The incidence of bow hunters being killed IS remarkable for one simple reason…it is very, very rare, especially when measured against the number of hours spent in the field with bow in hand. I mean you no disrespect when I tell you that if you are truly seriously worried about being killed while bow hunting, then perhaps you should reconsider the sport altogether. It does involve tree stands and weapons of one sort or another. Your chances of being killed by falling from your tree stand are probably at least 10 times as great as being shot by the cross bow hunter that you are wont to condem. I’ve seen from several reputable sources that the average bow hunter has a 1 in 3 three chance of being injured or killed by falling while climbing up, hunting in, or climbing down from a tree stand. How about Mandatory Tree Stand Safety then?

    Again I ask, where do we stop with this idea of mandating new hoops for hunters to jump through in the name of safety?
     
  18. Arrow 1, the opportunity to learn more about my sport is already available from a tremendous variety of sources, besides NBEF course. If any hunter would like to take advantage of such opportunities, he is free to do so without having it mandated by law. Please explain to me why an “opportunity” should be mandated? Because some archers don’t like crossbows?

    Let me ask you this and please answer honestly. Did you take the NBEF course before you hunted with a bow? I would be most surprised if you did. You would most certainly be the exception to the rule.

    “The opportunity to learn more about your sport is not a barrier.” Agreed, not a barrier, until it is mandated by law. Then regardless of my expertise, or experience, I MUST cross that hurdle, that barrier between me and bow hunting. Let’s stop pretending that it is not a barrier. I happen to have great respect for the NBEF course, and if I decided I want to take it I can…at my convenience, thank you.

    Arrow 1 you stated: “vc1111, I don't know if you bowhunt or crossbow hunt or if you do, how long you have done it. I'm not trying to slam you but it sounds to me like you have not done much of it or are just very mis-informed.”

    Paleeeease. If I disagree with a mandated course, in addition to the one that is already required, then I must be either inexperienced or “very misinformed??????”

    That sir, is a very, very weak argument at its very best, and a thinly veiled slam at its worst. I am 50 years old. I have been hunting since I was 14 years old. I have killed 21 deer in the last 5 seasons alone, mostly with the compound bow. I have never hunted with a crossbow, but I respect the right of Ohioans to use them if they wish. I happen to be well educated, have more than a rudimentary understand of law and the political process, and spend considerably more time enjoying the sport of hunting than the average guy that only gets out on weekends. There. Am I entitled to an opinion now?

    Your bias against crossbows is crippling your ability to be objective and perhaps more importantly, your ability to be fair.

    Lastly you state: “According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

    And your point is? So what if crossbows are popular? They require a minimal amount of skill and practice? So what? Are you trying to say that since they are so easy to use, they mandate a safety and education class? Explain how that makes any sense at all.

    “literally you can go to the store in the morning, buy a crossbow, take it home and sight it in and be hunting with it that night.”

    So if we require the course, we can slow down (as in impede, or create barriers against) the raging popularity of crossbows?

    I am very disappointed. I thought this thread was about mandating bow hunter education classes, even though we already have mandated Hunter Safety course requirements in place.

    This is really about making it tougher for more crossbow hunters to join our ranks. Why didn’t you just say so?
     
  19. Here is where I come from......I was raised on a farm and cut my teeth keeping the sparrow and pigeon population in check. At age 6 grandpa gave me a no name red fiberglass recurve and a fist full of wooden field point arrows. I bought my first bow a bear whitetail from the wiggs in fremont ohio at age 14. I used that bow Until I was 20 years old when I purchase my oneida strike eagle. I still have that bow and shoot it. Bout 3 or 4 years ago I bought a ten points crossbow, I was tired of being busted drawing.

    That crossbow has more in common with a gun than a bow. It really is point and shoot. The problem with it is the way horton markets the darn things. They are loud, really loud. These uneducated people are taking shots out 40 yards with them. They really have no business doing it. the deer will jump the string. enough of that nonsense I dont want to talk about that stuff anymore.

    I just purchased a new pse bow to hunt with again. I was getting kinda worried about the age on the oneida. the weapon makes no difference to me. Like I said it is about the woodcraft.

    I have no ax to grind. I think the sales guy a buckeye said the sell twice as many crossbows as vertical bows.
     
  20. Okay

    Okay guys common... No more slamming please. Everyone here is titled to their own opinion and the right to post it.. I dont believe I am the only one here that does not care to see one another get slammed so lets just drop it right now and get back to some good old debates. ;)

    If any questions or problems please feel free to pm me or ask on here.

    In Friendship
    Mike aka Zfish
     
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