Rut predictions?

[gregory1]

Anyone seeing any pre rut action, any predictions on when the rut will hit?

[2001ZincSR]

Im seeing huge massive scrapes now, tended to daily, Ive heard of bucks following does, lip curling and everything. My parents told me they almost hit a buck last night that had its head to the ground right behind a doe. It looks like they are starting to rut. Im going out in just a couple minutes, hopefully I'll see some action

[bowtech777]

I really hate to remind some people but charles alsheimer rut prediction said that the rut could be really early this year.
I will upload a pic of the chart.
I have followed it for about 4 years and it is really close to what the dates say.
I was really surprised to see rut sign this early in the season, but low and behold there it is, rubs scrapes the whole nine yards.
I think it is just starting to heat up.

[hunTer06]

Im seeing plenty of rutting action already. Lip curling bucks, grunting and chasing does, massive scrapes, etc. It's happenin.

[10Gauge]

It's going to happen without a doubt!

[bowtech777]

OCTOBER 17th was the Rutting moonand and the pre-rut moon was on september 19th.

quote from hunting whitetails by the moon


in previous chapters i discussed the fact that there are 2 years between now
and 2020 that dont fit my definition for the pre-rut and rutting moons,
which are the first and second full moon after the fall equinox.
those two oddball years are 2005 and 2013.
in 2005, the pre-rut moon will occur september 19th, four days before the
fall equinox.that means that in 2005, the rutting moon will occur october
17th.
in 2013 the pre-rut moon will occur sept.21st, two days before the fall
equinox, causing the rutting moon to occur on october 19th.

[Deerslayer45102]

So do you think it is safe now to through out some estrous scent?

[brian]

I thought the rutting moon was the 2nd full moon after the autumnal equinox? That was the 22nd of Sept, there was a full moon Sept 18, Oct 17, the next one is Nov 16 that should be the rut moon yes? . Am I figuring wrong? It does seem very late but what the heck do I know. :confused:

[Buckmaster]

Nov 6 is the day.

[Flaming Arrow]

I was watching Deer and Deer Hunting on the Outdoor channe a few months ago and Dr Charles Alsenhiemer predicted the rut will be on or around the 16th of November.

It amazes me how every year we hunters foam at the mouth in anticipation of the rut. I often wonder who is more rut crazed? The deer or we the hunters?

[brian]

I'm not sure either, I can't stop peeing all over my legs, and its starting to annoy my wife. ;)

[countyroad]

Brian-
Just tell her it's better than you chasing after her trying to get a whiff of her "monkey." LOL Unless you are doing that.

[XX78]

Summation: just get out there and hunt.

This is my plan

Estrous: maybe this weekend, definately next

Rattle: little this weekend, definately next

Hunting: little this weekeng, definately more next

The rut is mystic, awesome, and not over in 24 hours. So get out there more often between Oct 27ish- Nov13 ish !!!!!!

[OHBOW76]

Dont forget the wildcard...WEATHER..if it gets cool which it looks like it will, than great. If I had the time I would hunt every chnace I got, but with school right now I have to pick my battles, so if the weather stays warm than I will try and work ahead in school, if it gets cold than I 'm out there for sure!!! I try and not burn myself out hunting when I know deer movement will be down, I save the marathons for the cooler weather that coincides with late october.

[bowtech777]

the rutting moon is actually called the HUNTERS moon, and the Hunters Moon follows the HARVEST moon which is called the Pre-Rut Moon.

THe words the 2ND FULL MOON AFTER the fall equinox is normally 100% correct EXCEPT this year (2005) and the year 2013.

the Harvest moon which is the moon that occurs closest to the fall equinox actually happened to be full a few days BEFORE the fall EQUINOX.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<FROM THE BOOK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

YEAR 2005

Pre-Rut Moon / Harvest Moon occured on September 19th

Fall equinox occured on September 22nd or 23rd.

Rutting Moon / Hunters Moon occured on October 17th.

the Dates - the quotes - the Rutting Chart Dates are ALL from Charles Alsheimers Book "Hunting Whitetails By The Moon"

None of this INformation I have shared is anything I have concluded, it is all INFORMATION FROM THE BOOK.
all dates - reason for everything is from CHarles Alsheimer - Wayne Laroche - Patrick Durkin - Debbie Knauer - Paul Daniels - Terry Rice - Ben Lingle - TGom Morgan - Dave Griffith - Mike Biggs - Leonard Lee Rue III - Erwin Bauer - Jim Charlie and quite a few others who were involved in the study and the writing of the book.

[OHBOW76]

I still dont know if they get it Bowtech 777, you have only posted this info 1,000 times!!LOL!!!

[bowtech777]

I would just like to know when all these guys book on hunting the rut and the truth about moon phases being non-sense is coming out.
I would actually like a copy. LOL !!!

I think I would rather listen to the advice of a bunch of well known expert deer hunters / master degree Wildlife biologist /scientist concerning a 15 to 20 year broad spectrum study of the effect of the moon on Whitetail deer behavior concerning the rut timing than a hunting buddy who is only going by his limited experience and things he has heard about deer behavior at certain times of the year.
I do not think it is as easy as saying the Peak of the Rut is always November 1st through November 14th every year fom now untill the end of time.

I do not mean to be offensive to anybody on the site and I am not trying to say Everybody is wrong in their beliefs, but I have gotten a positive response from the theory and the dates out of the book and I truly believe there is something to the moon phases.

It seems to coincide with what I see in the woods and if you dont believe it, then that is your option, just keep doing what works for you.

I wish everybody on here all the best luck in the world this season.

NO hard feelings toward anybody and I hope nobody has any hard feelings against me.

[OHBOW76]

I think the Rut in general is a very vague term, I mean lets be honest a buck could mate a doe any time his antlers are hard. The problem with that is nature has to time it somehow so most of the fawns will survive, too early and they are born when food is scarce and the weather is still too cold. Too late and they cant get enough nutrition before the winter sets in. Still the fuys that say the rut is going to be November 8, 16,23 , whatever, aren't completely wrong its safe to say breeding will be going on. There are many factors and theories regarding the rut, weather, moon, neither same time every year, I have even heard one regarding bucks regulating the rut by rubbing activity and that the more rubs in an area the earlier the rut something about how it stimulates the does to come into esrous earlier. All I can say is its hard to narrow down one specific day that you can define as the rut. I happen to buy into a little of it all, moon, weather, and doe/buck ratio. I have hunted two differnt properties on the same weekend and at one there are bucks running does everywhere and the other it seems like the rut is weeks away. I dont know what to think to be honest, but I will take any edge I cna get, most of all I rely on my own two eyes and observations of other hunters. So if you buy that, then just look at what everyone is saying on this site, they cnat all be wrong, whether you believe bowtech777 or not, a bunch of guys on this site are seeing an awfully lot of behavior that is rut related and its not just recent, guys were starting to see serious scarpes and rubs very early this year. Now look at the data bowtech777 has and everyones observations and what the data says seems to match up. I for one am going to be out there the minute this damm warm weather moves out using rut tactics like decoys, scents, rattling, etc. I may not get many deer to respond, but I think anyhting that does will be a mature buck looking to hook up for the first time this year.....GOOD HUNTIGN ALL!!

[brian]

I think I got it now. I apoligize for not paying attention, thanks bowtech and ohbow. I guess I should have read more and typed less. Absitively CR, theres always a ruttin' moon in my neighborhood, I made a scrape in the flowerbed the other day, just to let her know I was still around.....here kitty kitty kitty:D

[bowtech777]

Brian,

I completely understand how it got so confussing.
THe term or expression of the 2nd full moon After the fall equinox is true for just about all of the years EXCEPT 2005 and 2013, when the 1st Full moon or the Harvest/ or as Alsheimer call it The Pre-Rut Moon is actually a few days before the fall equinox which throws alot of people off on the moons.

So the last full moon on October 17th, was actually the Rutting moon or as everybody else knows it "the Hunters Moon".

just look up the days on the internet of the moon phases, just remember the Harvest moon is the Pre-rut moon and the Hunters moon is the rutting moon.

[CritterGitter]

We have gone over this. Remember that hunting pressure plays a role as well. So, if people don't buy into it and they stay home then that helps me! lol

:D

CG

[bowtech777]

CG,

I agree... I also posted that in one of the replys, hunting pressure or human activity along with temperatures and buck to doe ratios can change it from region to region slightly.

Its not an exact science but it really gets you in the ball park.

[wallydog1]

Three young bucks chasing Does around the yard Tonight and the Yearlings running around like school kids up here in Royalton.I Can't predict the peak but it doe's look like the
predictions for a early Peak just might be Right on.

[Thunderflight]

I heard the rut was going to be canceled this year.

[2001ZincSR]

ive seen a doe "freshning up" a scrape earlier this week. I think I'll try some estrous scent and rattling next time im out.

[Deerslayer45102]

I heard the bucks are going to be taking a vow of celebicy this year.

[10Gauge]

I'm not going to argue with you "moonies", but Mr. A clearly states at his website the 2nd full moon AFTER the Fall Equinox is what triggers the rut........THAT is mid November NOT October, kids!

WHO isn't getting THAT? ALL you have to do is READ his site to understand he repeats it over and over that it IS the 2ND FULL MOON AFTER THE FALL EQUINOX THAT TRIGGERS THE RUT.......Let's go to Mr. A's website and cut and paste it, could it be the NEW website data superceeds SOMEBODIES BOOK?!?!

If you believe scrapes and rubs are signs of the RUT happening you DON'T know the definition of RUT?!?! The definition of RUT is when breeding occurs......pre-rut is bucks chasing does NOT making scrapes and rubs.

The "decision" or better yet the "urge" for a buck to breed or mate or RUT isn't up to BUCK and it can't happen anytime his antlers are HARD? (maybe you mean this to be a cute play on words, OHBOW) It is up to the Doe and when she comes into esterous or "heat". Not all does come into heat at once some start in late October and others come in late November. So technically Bucks can and do RUT for several weeks not just 2-3 days! The RUT is sometimes more intense if a large number of does come into heat at or about the same time, this is why some hunters THINK the RUT is only 2-3 days in length. I've hunted areas where the "peak" of the RUT was very, very intense for 2-3 days but I've hunted years (and regions) where the RUT was 5-7 days of steady but not intense RUTTING.

Let's make a small wager, bowboys........if your moonie rut prediction is correct and we are in the middle of the rut right now as you are claiming then more deer will be harvested in the state of Ohio this week and less the week of November 7th-14th! Isn't that what you are saying bowtech? If you are I'll bet you $100 US dollars that don't happen.......and more bucks will be harvested between the 7th & 14th of Nov. Heck I'll give you 2 weeks of harvest numbers if you want, take October 15th thru Oct 30th and I'll take those 7 days in November! If you really are consumed by the moonie bunk you'll take the bait, I mean bet!

Disclaimer-nothing personal, like you said, you have your beliefs and others can believe what they want.....I believe you have your moon's mixed up and IMHO the RUT is still weeks away!

[Spring fever]

Watched a little 6 pointer chase a doe all morning on Tuesday. Later in the day he was joined by bigger 6 pointer but the second buck just didn't show as much interest and didn't trail her very long. Also watched 2 small bucks shove each other around for over an hour. Todays action was dead and since the wind was so bad I left early (9:00) without seeing a deer.

:) --Sf

[Photog]

Last night I watched a snake in my yard trying to have marital relations with the garden hose.

[CritterGitter]

I am a little bit discouraged. Don't worry everyone, crittergitter will keep going and hopefully figure something out but I haven't seen any rut behavior. Of course, it doesnt help that in 8 hunts I have only seen 5 deer. Though, 3 of those in the last 5 days and none of acting like they are all pumped up about anything. The deer that I have seen have been very relaxed and calm. They aren't sniffin, scrapin, peein, rubbin or nothin and they for sure aren't chasing anything.

I suppose I'll have to go out tonight in the rain and see what happens. Man, I hate huntin in the rain!

CG

[OHBOW76]

10 GA,

I have said before I only use the moon phase as part of the whole not the absolute word, but Bowtech777 would be foolish to take your bet and it wont prove anything. I am not taking sides here, and I may be wrong but I thought bowtech 777 said this was the peak chase phase, not the peak rut, but I may be wrong. I do however remember reading or hearing that it is the second full moon after the autmun equinox, and it is the rutting moon. The hunters moon is the same thing as the harvest moon. Anyway going back to the bet 10 GA, it would be a foolish bet because one, more guys will be in the woods during NOV, alot of guys take vacation during that time frame and they hunt all day instead of mornings/evenings, also the deer will be more active during daylight becasue the temp will be cooler, crops will be down in many places making deer alot more visible. I have an idea, someone should palce a call to the state wildlife biologist and ask there opinion. There has to be something to the predictions...I dont necessarily take the days they predict as golden, or verbatum, the observations on the duration and intensity of the rut though have been accurate for me. The so called long draw out trickle-ruts have been true as have been the short intense ruts.

[OHBOW76]

TF it wasnt canceled this year just rescheduled.lol

[bowtech777]

Nobody is saying we are in the MIDDLE of the rut right now.

The HUNTERS moon IS the Rutting Moon.......
Which is "NORMALLY" the 2nd full moon "AFTER" the fall equinox.
But Charles Alsheimer Specifies that the year 2005 is an ODDBALL
year, And that the Rutting Moon Is the moon that will or DID occur on OCTOBER 17th 2005 this year.
That Moon that was shining Nice and Bright on October 17th. was actually the Rutting moon which is NORMALLY the 2nd Full Moon AFTER the Fall Equinox ...........EXCEPT........ For this year, Because the Pre-Rut Moon which is also known as the Harvest moon which is NORMALLY the 1st Full Moon AFTER the Fall Equinox ......Except....... This year, The Harvest moon or the Pre-Rut Moon or the 1st Full Moon after the Fall Equinox actually occured a couple of days BEFORE the Fall Equinox, which made the Rutting Moon or AKA Hunters Moon on october 17th the1st full moon instead of it being the second full moon.
So....
Everyone thinks the Second Full Moon in November is the Rutting moon, Just to clear it up....

the full Moon in November is Not the Rutting Moon.

And to Clarify Even More...... 10 Guage, since you like to call people onto the carpet, The phase of the rut that SHOULD be occuring at this moment according to Charles Alsheimer is the CHASE PHASE , not the PEAK of the RUt as you keep insisting I said it is.
Which by the way... I did not one time EVER say we are in the MIDDLE of the RUT at this time.

What was said is....
Charles Alsheimers Rutting Chart States That Because of this being an ODD ball Year we could have a super early start to the rut or it could actually be pushed back up to a month because of the way the pre-rut moon occured BEFORE the fall equinox making the Rutting Moon the First Full Moon After the Fall equinox instead of the 2nd Full moon after the fall equinox.

He was not certain of the outcome for 2005 and 2013 because of the fall of the moons in relation to the fall equinox.

People reading only part of the theory and then deciding they have it all understood is where the term "enough Information to be Dangerous"Comes from.

[bowtech777]

Another thing....
I do not base everyone of my hunting outings on this theory, I do not live and die by it.
All I said was,"I think he is onto something" ....
How does that turn into something lke this with the $100.00 Bets and all???????
For the record....
I never said we are in the Middle of the rut.
I never said we are in the peak of the rut
I never said said this was my collected data and my theory
I never said everybody was wrong for not folowing along with me
I never said that I am right and everybody else is wrong
I never made a bet or even offered to make a bet with anybody
I never freaked out over the 2nd full moon thing


what I said was.....

According to Dr. Charles Alsheimer.......

This is an ODDBALL YEAR

The Fall equinox actually falls between the two moons making the 2nd full moon or otherwise known as the rutting moon the 1st full moon after the fall equinox and it occured on October 17th.

the pre-rut moon otherwise known to EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD AS THE HARVEST MOON which is normally the 1st full Moon after the fall Equinox actually occured THIS ODDBALL YEAR (2005) BEFORE the FAll Equinox.

THe Rutting Chart I shared with everybody is directly from Dr. Charles Alsheimer.

It states that it Could be an Early start to the Rut this Year, BECAUSE IT IS AN ODDBALL YEAR with the moons being out of sync with the fall equinox.

I also said Dr. Charles Alsheimer said"It could also be Pushed back an entire month instead of it being early" as the chart states.

According to the Chart.... We should or could be in the Chase Phase of the Rut.

JUST FOR THE RECORD.

[bowtech777]

Man ....

This place is becoming to argumentative on every discussion we start.

I come on here because I love to see what others are talking about concerning hunting, I love to learn new things I never knew before about hunting, I love to share the things I have learned about hunting over the years, I love to hear other peoples opinions and reasons why they feel or believe the things they do, but I like to hear all this in a rational discussion, not a heated debate or rageful resentful argument.
If I wanted to do that I would just start a fight with my wife. LOL!!

I am open and willing to hear anybodies opinion on things, but the name things and the betting and such is just uncalled for.

I am not a MOONIE ....
I just think there is something to the moon phase thing and I was trying to share and clarify just what I knew about the subject.

I hunt every chance I can get, moon or no moon.
I do not have the luxury of waiting it out because the phase isnt just perfect or the weather is just a tad too warm, I gotta hunt when I get a shot to hunt.

I did not mean to cause such an uproar...
I was just explaining what I knew about the subject, and when I did, I almost felt like a comic being heckled by some members of the site.

Maybe I should just keep my opinions to myself, I think we would all be better off.

[Thunderflight]

It's ok. Your an engineer. It's not your fault.:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[wallydog1]

Well for one I think this is a Intresting post.I really never put any thought about the Moon Cycles.But they all fit into the scheme of things.Nothing is Absolute but things do coincide for a reason.I believe in areas we are in the chase Phase if you want to call it that.The deer in my yard are more active since this cold front and I have see 4 deer on the road dead today.Down south last week
did not see the activity I am see up north.looks to me like the first week in november 1rst thru 10th I need to be in the woods.

And man I agree that people need to Chill a little. No one is impressed with the I am right and you are Wrong attitude.

[archer077]

it wasn't a good idea for me to start reading this thread, now my head is hurting

[Redhunter1012]

I think the weather plays the biggest factor. In my area it seems the little bucks are doing some cruising right now checking scrapes and covering alot of ground. The big boys usually get into it later I think. I haven't seen any midday activity yet around my area and haven't heard of any yet from anybody else. I never knew onf Mr. A's book and predictions until I found this site. From what I can remember of the past couple years it seems pretty accurate though. Don't hate me, but, I've only been within shooting range of one doe all season so far. In the past week I've had a small 5 point at 26 yards and a 2 1/2 year old 8 point at 14 yards.

[OHBOW76]

Sorry bowtech, I kep forgetting that this is an oddball year so the hunters moon is the rutting moon...!!!

[bowtech777]

OhBOW76,

No need to be sorry, All that really matters is people are seeing the rut beginning to start almost just as the chart predicted.
it thought that the chase phase would start early and in my opinion from what i have seen and from what i hear alot of other guys say they are seeing, Iwould say it is accurate to say it started early this year.

Now.... How long this goes before the actual breeding begins I guess we will have to wait and see.

And I am sure it isnt the same in everybodies locations Due to different RUT suppressors, sucha s Hunting pressure or human activity or the Buck to doe ratio in that area, it could be a few different things or maybe a combination of a few.

Ohbow, thanks for the support on this issue, I really dont care if anybody buys it or not, as long as it is happening in my area.

People act like its my theory and I get offended if they dont agree, i couldnt really care less if they agree, I was just trying to explain and clear up the confussion about the the Oddball year and the 2nd full moon this year was actually the 1st full moon after the fall equinox.

Because the equinox came between the Harvest moon and the Hunters moon instead of before.

this will happen in 2005 and 2013.

harvest moon = pre rut moon
hunters moon = rutting moon

Good luck this weekend Ohbow76, And to everyone else on the site.

I hope there are some big boys running around this weekend

[Z Man]

Bowtech-

In case you haven't seen this - In the October, 2005 issue of Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine, in an article entitled "Game On", Alsheimer issued a correction to page 217 of his book - Hunting Whitetails by the Moon.

He specifically says that "when it was written in 1999, Alsheimer knew 2005 and 2013 might be questionable years because of the timing of the rutting moon in relation to the autumnal equinox. At the time he simply didn't have enough data collected to be accurate with these two years. That has since changed. The books rutting moon entries for 2005 and 2013 should be corrected to read Nov. 16 and Nov. 18, respectively. The bottom line is to use the information in this article (which is also repeated in Deer & Deer Hunting's 2005 Whitetail Calendar)."

He also reiterated Nov. 16, 2005 as the North Rutting moon on the Deer & Deer Hunting tv show this past summer.

Hope that helps.

[zak]

i was walking through the woods the other night, and actually seen two small bucks sparring and a doe was off standing in the weeds. it was fun to watch

[bowtech777]

Well to be honest with you...
Chuck should have kept his first inclination as it was because as just about everybody has noticed there is definitely pre-rut activity stirring up in the woods, Like I said before...

I dont go by the moon like some may like to think, I like to keep an eye on it and compare activity to his predictions but I hunt when I can hunt, and if he is right with a date, then that is awesome, if he is not correct on a date, then Oh well...
I will be there as many times as I can possibly be there and I am sure I will eventually be out in the woods when everything gets heated up and the best hunting of the year is going on.

But.. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE INFO. ABOUT HIS CORRECTION !!
IT IS DEEPLY APPRECIATED !!

BUt I think he should have kept it the way it was, because it is working out to be correct.

BUt either way it goes , it is going to be a fun fun season.

THanks for the update Z-Man , I really appreciate it.

[bowtech777]

Just so everybody knows....

I am really sorry about all the ranting I did the other night.
The Moon thing does not mean anything to me really.

I think it is really interesting and I am actually amazed at alot of the data they collected over that time frame.

But I do not base my day in the field on his predictions, I hunt when I can where I can.

I am sorry to EVERYBODY for my outburst and I hope you all except my apology.

That means you too 10guage !!!

I am sorry for blowing up !!!

OhBow76 Thanks for all the support !!!

Charles Alsheimer Better get his crap together LOL !!!!!!

I hope everybody has a great season !!!
God bless Everyone on this site.

[CritterGitter]

I think the corrections has TONS of merit.

#1 It maintains consistency in his study which I think is very important.

#2 I have not witnessed any rut behaviour by mature deer. I have seen young bucks dead on I-71 and I have seen young bucks harrassing doe. That happens nearly every year around this time.

#3 I do think a very small percentage(3% or less) of mature doe will be bred this week(likely between now and next Thurs). Then, things will settle down again. I don't know this for a fact and I didn't read it as part of the study, but it is just a hunch.

CG

[CritterGitter]

Oh by the way, I am glad I scheduled vacation for 11/4 - 11/13. There should be some great pre-rut action during that time period!

CG

[Lance]

I think the moon affects more than the deer! :D ;)

[bowtech777]

Example...
I am going to out hunting this afternoon with the rain and hopefully not a super strong wind in hopes of getting one tonight.
I am out there not because of the moon, not because of the game movement chart and etc..

I am out ther because it is one of the only Days i can get out there to hunt,so moon or no moon I am going to be there.


Hopefully WHENEVER the Rut startsI will be there.

[kpsingleton]

I do most of my hunting in Holmes and Harrison county. Have seen a ton of rubs out there and a good number of scrapes. Haven't really seen any bucks chasing the does but the sign is all over the woods.

I work for my dad so for all the sh#t that I have to put up with it's kinda nice because I can just say, "Hey, can I take these days off because of the Rut..." He should be pretty cool about it because he knows how fanatical I am about hunting.

[bowtech777]

I go to church in Westlake !!

[Thunderflight]

I predict that this year will be a great year, especially since I'll be on leave for just about the month of November. ;)

[Z Man]

Bowtech- You are welcome. Just wanted to make sure you (anyone else) knew he did issue a correction to his book. I don't necessarily follow the moon theory either but I think it is interesting to try and correlate what we see with some kind of fixed event to help predict deer behavior. After all, hunters are in the "business" of predicting when and where deer will show up just by selecting a time and place to hunt.

That said, I hunt whenever I get the chance. The whereever is mainly determined by the wind direction.

Good Hunting!

PS- I agree with Thunderflight. This will be a great year!

[Buckmaster]

Vacation is booked for Nov 3-13.

[Hunt Hard]

Just got my Field & Stream magazine last week. Good article on best days in November to be in the deer woods. According to the article Nov 8th is the BIG day. It also lists a couple others too but rut wise it looks like the 8th. I'll be out there to test the theory for sure!!

Good luck all.

[Buckmaster]

My peak chase days to the likes of 12 bucks per day are as follows.

2004 Nov 8
2003 Nov 7

[10Gauge]

I'm glad you guys have cleared this "Rut" thing up for me!

Lance, you hit the nail on the head!

I was not offended by anyones post nor was I trying to offend anyone with my response!

TF, you beat me to the punch but I'll add, BowTech777 is an engineer and we engineers live and die by the data! LOL :D :D
I love that man's conviction and his passion!

Threads like this one keep me coming back to see who said what last!

This site & you guys ROCK!!!!