Should Ohio Non resident license prices go up?

[Basementdweller]

I personally have never had a problem but on bowsite there is a thread about this. 90 bucks for a license is too cheap. I would like to see Ohio NR License go up to the $400 range. Plus NR deer tags at $100 a piece.

What do you think?

[Ohio Bill]

Just raising the out of state license $100 , imagine how much money it would bring....:rolleyes:

[flathunter]

I say go for it!

[Caribou Dreamer2]

Why
Who cares as long as my resident tags dont go up any more. Heck i like to see a sportman tag.One fee for everything not 20 here not 20 for this one ,not 20 for that one etc.One fee.I also like the idea of when you go to purchase your deer tags you have to mark on the tag what weapon you are going to use and that is the only one you can hunt with for that year.So if you marked archery then its archery all year no gun hunting Or vise versa.What do you all think of that.Why raise the out of state tags then we will be just like the rest of the state nobody can afford to hunt another state.Leave it the same in my thoughts.:confused:

[MadCatter]

Why in the world woud you want to deny one sportsman the opportunity to hunt or fish in the state of ohio. Raising the hunting license to $500 is riduculas at best. This nation is founded on the premise that all men are created equal and all enjoy the same rights .. why limit out of state hunters to rich elitists that all ready buy their way through life. Then we can get in to fee wars with other state until no one can afford a NR license to hunt or fish.. Not too long ago OH didn't have all that great of deer or turkey hunting and we ohioans had to go to other states to fill our tags. Now are are over run with deer to the point its not safe to drive during the rut season. Maybe with a few politicians on your side we will licensing fees out of control and we can all become basementdwellers instead of sportsman because we can no longer afford to hunt and fish.

[Aimrite]

I think we should match NR charges. If IL and other states charges and Ohio NR 200-400$ plus I think we should charge the same. A reciprocal system is only fair.
HOWEVER

Also consider the money earned does not go to the ODNR but to the state assembly who dishes money out. Who is the extra revenue really helping?

[Basementdweller]

I was just asking an opinion. Just relax.

I would like to see ohio adopt the sportsman license also...I think pennsylvania does it. Fishing and hunting with one license.

Indiana is still a bargain....but all of our neighbors are in the ball park of $150. Why not bring ohio in line.

South carolina almost $300 for a non resident.

[Nut]

What I would like to see is the annual non-resident license stay the same with the deer and turkey tags to double in price for two years. Then go up another 10 dollars. This will not exclude the former Ohioans who enjoy coming home to hunt and also will help keep us in line with our neighbors a little more like Kentucky and Pa.

A sportsman license would be nice:cool:

[pdq 5oh]

The way many other states are becoming hunt on leased or public land, we may see more and more non-residents. I'd hate to see the dollar signs posted on all the private land. Raising the non-resident fees may help the state procure more quality land. At some point, unless you are willing to pay a lease, that may be all there is. Raising the fees may also help keep the non-resident numbers down. I may sound greedy, but I don't want to see Ohio become a lease to hunt state. I know of people that are paying leases now. As more and more people look for places to hunt, more and more land owners may look to lease.

[spencerstub]

I think that the out of state hunters should pay more. I have hunted in W.V the last couple of years and my license are $110.00 and my tags are $25.00 each,up to 5 tags totall in all that is available to by. Kentuckys will cost you $110.00 for non resident. ohio should be the same, hey if they can charge us those prices then lets charge them those prices! and not to mention the revenue that ODNR would gain. and maybe we could use some of that money to fight anti hunters and animal rights activists!

[george tinkham]

Well if we raise it so will the bordering states and we will be stabbing ohio hunters in the back that hunt surrounding states.Guess some that don't hunt states bordering ohio have nothing to lose though.

[lureboy98]

I too voted for the NR charges. I think that is only fair.

[spencerstub]

all i like to see,is that we raise our fees to match theres. and not get into a fee competiton about it. if you look at the quality of deer compaired to KY ,and W.V we have bigger and better deer in this state. our bucks our 30 to 40 % bigger. i am not saying the non resident should pay for quality, but they should atleast pay what there owne state charges for non residents

[Worm Queen]

Is the tourism dollars that NR hunters and fishermen bring into the state. The same holds true when Ohioans go out of state to do their hunting or fishing. Stop and think about the gas you buy, or the meals or the lodging. As a small merchant, we don't make much on the tourists, nor on their NR tags, but we do see the number of out of state people that come to this little corner of Ohio, and the numbers are rather surprising. I would sure hate to discourage them by charging excessive fees to hunt or fish in this great state of ours. There's no question...tourism is a major industry in Ohio, and either directly or indirectly, the money they spend, benefits all of us.;)

[Pike]

First let me say that, there is and always have been more hunters from OH. that come to PA. for Rifle season than there is hunters from PA. that head to OH. for shotgun season. Also I own a house in SW. FL. at least 20% of the Fisherman that rent it are from OH. and atleast 15% of the snowbirds that rent it are from OH. I do agree that both OH. and PA. should charge NR. hunters the same amount as it cost OH. & PA hunters and fisherman to hunt or fish in that particular state. I have hunted in MD. for many years as a NR. MD. charges NR's the same price that PA. charges MD. hunters to hunt. I think that is the way it should be, If a certain state puts NR. hunters thru a lottery system, than I think OH., PA. and MD. should do the same for NR.'s from those states as well. Many OH, hunters and fishermen go out of state to enjoy the outdoors, Like some one else stated you would just be stabbing yourself in the back by making a large increase NR. Lic, fee's. I personally do not mind paying NR. res. Hunting and Fishing lic fee's, I look at it like a donation to the wildlife of that state, and that is the least I can do for being a guest sportsman in that state. Actually, I paid More money to hunt in OH. this year than I did in MD. but. not by much. I think it was like $10.00 more, So Ohio is right in line with PA. and MD. Also I do not see the problem OH. has with too many NR. hunting in Ohio, according to the ODNR. they sold 13,175 NR. Lic's in 2000, So believe it or not the state of MD. which is much, much, much smaller in size sells more NR. lic's than does Ohio. Pike

[Ðe§perado™]

I would raise them up to match the states around us. ;)

[atrkyhntr]

I own a guide service (Beardbuster) here in our great state of Ohio and never have I heard more then a couple complaints of the cost of our license fees for NR... The couple I have heard take a step back after I tell them how much it would cost us to hunt their state and they end up coming here...
Fair is fair we should charge the same fee that other states are charging us.
Maybe we could get a petition going and have the results sent to the Ohio general assembly and the DNR...
Maybe admin here can start one by going to petitiononline (http://www.petitiononline.com/) and starting a free online petition ;)

[Lance]

I wouldn't vote for more than the match. The people it will hurt the most are our friends and relatives who come home on vacation to hunt with family.

[Mal]

I personally would like to hunt in other states, but it is too expensive at the present. I think we should lead by example, and keep our prices down. Heck I wouldn't mind even hunting with Michigan guys. LOL

[jeffmo]

i think we need to figure out why we would want them raised.if it's to keep the numbers of out of state hunters down,raise extra money for the dnr,or to keep in line with our neighboring states.
colorado raised their n.r. fees on elk tags a couple of years back and ended up with around 20% less n.r. tags sold the next year.
i feel for former residents if the fees are raised.maybe the dnr could take former residency into consideration if they do change the fees.
maybe the dnr could simply average out the fees that are charged in neighboring states to come up with a fair n.r. fee
not sure what the best answer is.

[Splitshot]

Raining the rates for out of state hunters and fishermen is a bad idea. When you guys come to Michigan it already cost you more just to come here. Those high rates keep a lot of people from hunting other states too. Just look at what they do out west.

We need to pay our own way, but charging people more money just because they live on the other side of some line makes no sense to me. I wish each state would do away with all the higher rates.

The other idea that just because someone else does it is not a good reason. If you want to discriminate against sportsmen because of where they live, go ahead, but when you do it to them, they will do it to you and we all loose.

I know all about the who pays the taxes issue too, and that dog don't hunt either.

[gamegetter1]

I definitely agree that Ohio NR hunters should pay what their state charges for NR hunters. By matching what they charge, we won't have arguments about overcharging, and no one loses. If someone thinks it unreasonable, that only prompts them to bring up the issue in their home state. I think that is how Ohio should regard the issue.



David

[sll]

I sure hope they don't go up.I am in Tennessee and me and a few friends have been coming to Ohio to deer hunt for the last 2 years and you all have some trophy deer up there.Deer hunting in TN pretty much sucks if you are after a big one,but if you want meat,it is the place to go.Our resident license are going up 25% this year alone bringing it to $126 for a sportsmans license.Out-of-staters can hunt here as cheap as the residents can.We hunt on public land up there and it is better than our private land.If any of you all don't really care much for deer hunting and like turkey hunting better,Hook me up on some private land up there and I will put you on all the turkeys that you can handle in TN.

[Basementdweller]

I read somewhere that almost all of the dnr funding comes from hunting and fishing fees. We as a group whine about poachers, law breakers and unethical hunters. One way of improving the situation would be to increase the number of wildlife officers. Which cost money. We have a lot of non residents taking advantage of the walleye and steelhead runs too. It just isnt a deer issue.

I see the license increase as a way for them to add officers to help with the lawbreakers. Nothing more.

[Doesniper]

I live in Ky and have been hunting Ohio for the last 2 years. I have seen some decent deer but not quite big enough to take yet. The cost of your nr tags and Ky's nr are pretty close so what is all the fuss about? I bet I've added more on average, to Ohios hunting funds than any one of its residents. At least Ky gives you two tags for the price, and additional doe tags are two for $12.00 all day long, and you don't have to leave the area to shoot another deer. The more reasonable the price of your tags the more people from out of state will come to spend money in your local businesses. The more nr tags sold the more money goes to improving your wildlife programs through its DNR.
I enjoy hunting in your state and invite you to come and enjoy hunting in Ky. Jim Hamilton
(Doesniper)

[atrkyhntr]

Another mis-informed NR (Doesniper)
Before speaking maybe re-read this thread and give us all a break that after hunting 2 yrs in our great state that you can even remotely come to your conclusion:
I bet I've added more on average, to Ohios hunting funds than any one of its residents
Also as stated before in this thread all the money does not go into hunting/fishing it goes into the general fund and is then divided up as the lawmakers in this state see fit...
It seems to me that the only thing many NR's are concerned about is not paying thier fair share while we pay more to hunt their state 99% of the time... :(
Glad you enjoy what we have created here in the great state of Ohio :cool:

[Craig Fletcher]

I'm totally astounded that there are so many uninformed opinions blatantly thrown around. THis is not directed at any one person in particular, so relax!!!!! THis is part of a post I made in a different thread. Read it and then make your statements:

The fees from hunting and fishing licenses, special hunting permits(deer & turkey), fur taker permits, along with any fines that are accrued do to violations of laws that are related to the issuance of such permits and licenses, are paid into the state treasury to the credit of the wildlife fund, which shall be exclusively for the use of the department of natural resources in the education of hunters and trappers, for the purchase, management, preservation, propagation, protection, and stocking of wild birds and wild quadrupeds, for establishing and purchasing or otherwise acquiring title to lands for game preservation, propagation, and protection, and for public hunting grounds under rules to be adopted by the chief of the division of wildlife. The chief may employ on such lands one or more game management agents and wildlife officers at such salary and with such duties as the chief prescribes for improving habitat for wild birds and wild quadrupeds and for all phases of game management, propagation, and protection, including the necessary biological investigations, for printing summarized game laws and the division of wildlife lawbook, and for printing such educational leaflets, pamphlets, and books and promoting such educational, survey, and research activities pertaining to the management, preservation, propagation, and protection of wild animals as are approved by the chief and as provided in this chapter and Chapter 1531. of the Revised Code.

The department shall not spend more than thirty-five per cent of this fund for administration and enforcement.

The projected amounts for this fund in fiscal year 2002 were $46,177,752. For fiscal year 2003 $48,713,747.

If you take the amount for 2003 and multiply it by the 35% you end up with $17,049,811 that the state may use for Administration and enforcement. This leaves $31,663,936 That may be used for everything else within the department of Wildlife.

Of the total of $48,713,747, Only $738,750 comes from the Ohio General Revenue Fund. This means $47,974,997 has come from the sportsmen of Ohio!!! That roughly translates into
98.5% of the Division of Wildlife's budget. We, the hunters and fishermen of Ohio, support the Wildlife Division.

Ok, Next thing. The ODNR already has the ways and means to match the license fees of other states without a new law.
This is the text of the Ohio Revised Code:


§ 1533.91 Reciprocal agreements as to fees for licenses and permits.
Text of Statute

The chief of the division of wildlife, upon approval of the wildlife council and the attorney general, may enter into agreements with the appropriate officials of one or more states, whereby the chief will issue nonresident fishing licenses, hunting licenses, and hunting and fur taker permits to residents of other party states for the fees charged Ohio residents, and Ohio residents may obtain nonresident licenses in other party states for the fees that are charged residents of those states.

Hope some of this helps. If anyone has questions about any thing they don't fully understand. PLEASE ASK. I'll be more than happy to try to find the answer.

The education of the sportsmen and women of this state is best weapon we have to improve and protect our sport.

Good Luck and Safe Hunting, Craig

[Doesniper]

Attn: Atrkyhntr

How much have you spent on lic. in OH. the last two years?
Saying that I as a non-resident hunter care only about not paying my fair share is a pile. If I spend my money to hunt in your state or any other. I want to do all I can to help make it better, year after year. So instead of taking it out on the NR by raising fees and calling us misinformed, try tripling the fines and locking up the pigs that break the law.

[Splitshot]

Very nice post Craig. How do the PITTMAN-ROBERTSON fund monies enter into the Ohio equation?

By the way, when you hear something over and over lots of people start believing it as fact. If you criticize people for voicing thier opinions or what they think because they are wrong, people will keep them to themselves and no one will be able to set them straight.

Don't be astounded at the uninformed opinions, just say I have heard that too, but here are the facts. Since we are all sportsmen here, that seems appropriate, at least to me.

In the end, we need a lot more sportsmen that will do the research so that the rest of us can be better informed and you did a great job informing us. Thanks.

[Lance]

Very good point about the Pittman-Roberston funds splitshot. This is one that people often forget about. If it were not for the multi use battle for the dog trialing the past couple years I probably woundn't have even known what you were talking about. Ohio gets a nice chunk of change from this funds, to the point that almost every wildlife area in Ohio has been touched by this money. Ohio also gets matching funds from the federal goverment based on what Ohio puts in from the general fund. Infact Ohio almost lost the ability to provide free licenses to senior citizens this past year because the governor was going to raid the DNR funds which also would have robbed us of the matching fed dollars. Agreeing twice spilt??? The sky must be falling!!!

[Craig Fletcher]

The Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, popularly know as the Pittman-Robertson Act, was approved by Congress on September 2, 1937, and begin functioning July 1, 1938.

The purpose of this Act was to provide funding for the selection, restoration, rehabilitation and improvment of wildlife habitat, wildlife management research, and the distribution of information produced by the projects.
The Act was amended October 23, 1970, to include funding for hunter training programs and the development, operation and maintenance of public target ranges.

Funds are derived from an 11 percent Federal excise tax on sporting arms, ammunition, and archery equipment, and a 10 percent tax on handguns. These funds are collected from the manufacturers by the Department of the Treasury and are apportioned each year to the States and Territorial areas (except Puerto Rico) by the Department of the Interior on the basis of formulas set forth in the Act. Appropriate State agencies are the only entities eligible to receive grant funds. Funds for hunter education and target ranges are derviced from one-half of the tax on handguns and archery equipment.

Each state's apportionment is determined by a formula which considers the total area of the state and the number of licensed hunters in the state. The program is a cost-reimbursement program, where the state covers the full amount of an approved project then applies for reimbursement through Federal Aid for up to 75 percent of the project expenses. The state must provide at least 25 percent of the project costs from a non-federal source.

The proposed amount for Ohio for fiscal year 2003 is $3,344,229.

THe total amount Ohio has received from 1939 through 2002 is $99,116,769.

Hope this is what you were asking about. If you have any more questions,feel free to ask.

Good Luck and Safe Hunting,
Craig

[atrkyhntr]

Here is what I pay as a resident of Ohio
Resident Annual Hunting License $15.00
3 deer tags @ $20.00 ea $60.00
4 urban deer tags @ $10.00 ea $40.00
2 spring turkey tags @ $20.00 ea $40.00
1 fall turkey tag $20.00
fur takers permit $11.00
Ohio wetland stamp $11.00
Fed Migratory Stamp $15.00
Total $212.00
X the 2 years Doesniper
asked = $424.00
Lets not forget I have 6 children with 4 hunting 1 not wanting too and the other too young... I pay good as a resident sure wouldn't mind seeing NR's paying a fair share as I would to hunt their state...

[Doesniper]

I guess we pay about the same when its all said and done. I realize that many NR don't buy as much as others; however many also don't hunt or fish more than a weekend. As for this year I also spent over $200 in OH, and sadly only got to hunt 2 days due to work and family.
I guess what gets under my skin is people who think NR are coming over to rape the wildlife (don't believe what you hear about Ky, we don't rape wildlife) of other states. Some people hunt out of state because its cheaper than a lease in their home state.
I will continue to hunt in OH as long as I can afford it. I have 5 boys, and my fees here are getting pretty stiff as you can understand.
The idea of equal fees from state to state is fair. The problem I have is the $400.00-$500.00 folks. May God bless you and yours, and have a happy new year

[Splitshot]

We need to pay our way, but remember that for every dollar increase, there are some people who will not be able to hunt or fish because of their budgets or because that one extra dollar is just more than they are willing to pay and like Doesniper says with 5 kids, it's not one dollar more, but 6 dollars more. So you raise the rates $20.00 and now it's $120.00 more. So if Doesniper doesn't come here anymore, who really looses. Perhaps the kids.

Most hunters only hunt opening day and the same for people that fish. That means the people that fish and hunt a lot have the advantage. If you agree that the number of people that hunt and fish are just as important to our sports and maintaining the habitat, it only makes sense to only raise fees when it is necessary.

Let's say that I could afford a $10,000.00 dollar license and that there were enough of us that would pay $10,000.00 so the ODNR had the same amount of money to operate on as it does now. That makes it a lot better for me and all the others who can or are willing to pay the 10 grand. Most of the states fish and wildlife will be there for our pleasure.

Almost sounds a lot like it is in Europe where only the rich can afford to participate.

I have only fished in Ohio a few times and never hunted there. If I took the same attitude and pushed the state to raise it's rates for non-residents, it would keep a lot of sportsmen out of Michigan. I think we need to get past this my state this and my state that. We are all sportsmen and I have no problem if you come and visit us in Michigan and enjoy all of our resources and at a fair price. Stop the gouging!

[Spitfire]

I think it should atleast compare to our surrounding states prices.

[Lundy43123]

Splitshot,

I agree with you. It is the sportsmen of each state pushing for the non-resident license fee increases, not the state DNR's. Why would we do that to hunters and fisherman from other states?

I do agree that if a particular state has extremely high non-resident license fees, that Ohio should probably charge a similar amount to hunters from that particular state. Unfortunatly these high fees are most likely a result of the resident hunters complaining.

Ohio's non-resident fees are fairly similar to all of our bordering states. If you buy everything required to take one deer in each state, OH $111, PA $101, MI $129, WV $135, KY $140, IN $121.

PA even has a non resident Jr. license for deer hunting that is only $51. I think it's great that they recognize the impotance of the youth's today as the mainstay of hunting tomorrow

We could maybe stand to raise our fees a few dollars but that's it in my opinion.

Illinois has the highest Non Resident fee of any close state at $250.

I would hate to see fees raised to the point that it reduced opportunties for hunters.

Kim

[Spitfire]

Illinois is just ridiculous! I looked into going there for a hunt next year until I saw the price for Non-Resident tags.

[Splitshot]

Thanks Kim.

Spitfire, I agree with you. Their high fee probably cost the state of IL more revenue by you not going there than if they let you go for free. It is not very smart. If there are not enough deer to go around, I could see a lottery for people from out of state, but using a supply and demand curve to take advantage of people is not cool.

Like Kim said, it is the kids that suffer. Who can afford say $1200.00 for an elk tag for some youngster. I just don't get it. If I had time, I would look up the resident and non resident fees for some of our western states just to see the disparity.

[atrkyhntr]

Maybe we could just leave well enough alone... cept Illinois... Hate to punish their sportsman but seems like all the others are being pushed to or even over the limit WOW $250.00!!!
I know Ohio has been in the top ten for turkey population... if I remember correct. I do not belive Illinois comes anywhere near as close... Deer I know Illinois has some brutes but so does Ohio;)


Hey Doesniper some guys have all the luck LOL I have 5 daughters and only one son... I am saving my old 16ga dbl barrel for when them boys comes calling ;)

[timann]

i live next to PA there nr 125. have all my famly ther but cant aford it that what ours should be:D

[ncboman]

Illinois has priced themselves out of the game along with their drawing charades.

I've been to Ohio for the past two years, this year taking my 14yr old son. I think it cost me $252 for both of us in paperwork. That's a plenty for me.

Ohio definately has plenty to offer in hunting opps and seems to have a good overall program. Personally, I'd like to see antler restrictions in some areas, but I am thankful for what there is. I have enjoyed my adventures there.

[sunfish]

The prices in IL for NRs is way to high. I just don't understand it.

[bks]

I know this poll was posted to get the opinions of Ohio residents but from a non-resident point of view I hope you all realize that we the average sportsmen have no say in what our home states charge for resident license, much less non-resident. I've been deer hunting southeast Ohio for a couple of years now and hope to continue to do so as long as I can afford to. Here in Tennessee this year our resident sportsman license cost $101. I'm not sure but I think it cost non-residents $156. Which is probably not too bad considering that covers everything except a duck stamp. But if you're into hunting for big bucks, compared to Ohio, Tennessee does'nt have a clue how to manage a deer herd. This year while bowhunting public land for 7 days in Ohio I saw more bucks than I have seen in probably 7 seasons here. I really enjoy hunting your state and hope you don't raise the price of non-resident license to a point that the average everyday working man can't afford like some of the central and western states have done. Just some thoughts from a non-resident.

[Lundy43123]

bks,

I think that is the point many were trying to convey.

Do you think it is right that the TN nonresident license is $156 and Ohio is only $111.00 to hunt deer?

You have already stated that there is no comparison in the deer quality between TN and Ohio.

Is the right answer, and fair option, to raise Ohio fees to match TN, or to lower TN to match Ohio. I wish it was the later, but we know the fees will never go down.

The core to me still revolves around the intent of Basmentdwellers original question about raising non-resident fees. Is it to reduce the number of non-resident hunters or to charge for the quality of the deer herd?

Anyone ever try and get a non-resident deer tag for Kansas? It is by application and drawing only,limited quantities, price $276.00, Or how about Iowa, also by application and drawing, limited numbers available, price $309.

It becomes very hard not to believe that we should price match our non-resident fees to those of the states the non resident hunter comes from.

My brother lived in Ohio for 25 years and now lives in Colorado. He comes here to hunt a few days with me evry year. The Colorado license fees are $285 for a deer license. I also know that when he's here hunting he'll spend an additional $500-600 that goes to the Ohio economy. A loss of hunters can hurt the local merchants. What's the answer?

[sll]

Lundy43123,You are correct in the assumption that the prices of license will never go down,but we just hope they do not increase.Yes,as Tennessee residents it cost us $111 to hunt up there,but that is for one deer.The $156 cost of a non-resident license in TN could,if everything is timed right,net an out-of-stater a change at killing 3 bucks and 28 does!Like I said in an earlier post,if you are a meathunter,Tn is the place to come hunt,but not for a trophy.If you break that down into a deer-to-dollar ratio,Tn gives you a lot better chance for the meathunter.But,we are not after meat when we come to Ohio,we are after big racks,which is something that is hard to come by in TN.Our doe:buck ratio is probably 25:1 ,and that is not good management on our states part to help with QDM.On the other hand,Ohio has a ratio of 2:1,which in turn produces bigger bucks.

[Pike]

SLL, It is imposible to have a B/D ratio of 25:1. Because each and every year 50% of the fawns are born male!! TN. has a herd of around 1 million total deer, If the ratio was 25:1, TN's herd would have have a preseason herd of only 40,000 bucks, and 960,000 doe. and TN harvest's alot more than 40,000 bucks per year and if you were correct there would not be 1 buck capable of breeding any doe the following fall. Pike

[Lundy43123]

Sll,

I don't believe that your comparison of deer per dollar comparison is a apples to apples comparison.

I would venture to say that vast majority of hunters that travel out of state to hunt are not going for the meat hunting experience rather, just like you, the opportunity at harvesting a quality animal.

So I don't think it really matters how many small bucks or does the $156.00 buys a non resident in TN. If I only want meat I can get all I need here in Ohio, and I certainly don't need to shoot three small bucks and countless does just so I can say that I did. Who can even use over a couple of deer a year for meat, some maybe but not many.

So my question is why does it cost a nonresident $156 to hunt for deer in TN that most don't want to travel to hunt anyway, while Ohio is only $111 and you travel from TN to hunt. Most hunters that I know value quality (as you do by traveling to Oh) not quantity.

Don't take my response wrong, I welcome you to Ohio for hunting. The only question is should the fees be changed to reflect your home states fees.

Kim

[sll]

Pike,you would think that it is impossible,but remember I said that TN management sucks.In the western part of the state, the biologist say that the ratio is 6 does to every 1 buck,I do not hunt there on that end so I can not say out of personal experience.But as noted earlier,if everything fell right,those people on that end of the state can kill 3 bucks and 28 does!Now,I care nothing about shooting more than 3 as that is about all that I can eat in a years time,and I could care less if I kill that many if I could kill 1 trophy.On the eastern end where I live,we can kill 3 bucks and 3 does.Now we have as many deer on our end of the state as they do on the other end,but our terrain is a lot more difficult to hunt.But the state will not let the people thin the does out on our end like they do in west TN,so our ratio is way more out of wack.I can take you to a river bottom that I hunt about dark and show you at least 40 does and MAYBE a spike in the fields.and I guarantee you that none of these deer will weigh more than 80 pounds!Inbreeding has took it's toll on our end.I have not seen a scrape here in 10 years,only because the bucks do not have to compete for the does,they can not breed all of them in one year.But when we come to Ohio and hunt in November each year,you could play hopscotch in the scrapes there are so many.That shows that you have a balanced herd.Ohio kills as many deer in their 6 day shotgun hunt as Tn does in an over 3 month season.

Lundy,you are correct in your comment about no one would want to come and hunt in TN,most people can kill all that they can eat in their own state and Tn is not exactly known as a trophy destination.As for your comment of why would anyone want to pay for a $156 non-resident license fee to hunt here,we ask ourselves that same question.That is why the state of TN does not sell as many non-resident resident licenses as other states.They take that out on their residents and our licenses are going up 25 % this year alone,bringing our cost to hunt in our own state to $126.And for paying this much,we have nothing to show for it,that is why I and others go to Ohio to hunt.So,in short,my feeling is that if Ohio's non-resident fees go up and people from out of state quit coming there,the DNR will just raise the cost of your in state fees to compensate for the loss,just as TN has to us,which might I add SUCKS!

[Pike]

Sll, It doesnt matter how many deer Hunters in TN can shoot, the fact is, the 230,000 hunters in TN harvested 136,000 deer last season out of a population of 1 million, So it doesnt matter if each hunter can legally kill as many deer as they want, because less than half of alll the deer hunters in TN. harvested a deer last year. I am sure the bilogist are right on the money when they say the western part of the state has a Buck to doe:ratio of 1:6, and yes that is terrible, But like I said earlier there is no way you could have ratio of 1:25 it is just not possible. What was the total male deer harvest in TN. last year? Thanks, Pike

[atrkyhntr]

I see that many NR's justify their hunting trips to Ohio by the quality of game we have compared to their own state. But, over the last 10 years the quality of bucks in Ohio has went down and so has the number of Ohio Big Bucks that qualify. Now that said would both NR's and residents mind a decrease in male deer harvested or a point system or any other suggestions?
I'd go along with a closed system on bucks but what scares me is a point system such what Pa has. I own a guide service here in Ohio and a good friend owns one in Pa where he said after their gun season he found over 15 bucks that did not add up point wise laying waste affield waiting for the scavengers/coyotes to enjoy them because some hunters simply pulled the trigger and then counted points... That I know is stretching it and by no means is the norm but it does happen and has in Pa...
I still say Nr's pay here what we pay in their state. It is only fair especially states like Illinois where most of the NR $$ comes from hunting with guides or oufitters :(

[sll]

Pike,if you will go to tndeer.com and look at 2001/2002 total harvest,it is broken up between 95 counties the results.I tried to add it up but my calculator is screwed and I don't want to do it with a pencil.But there were 228,517 license issued and 157,599 deer CHECKED in,out of these it appears that at least 90,000 were bucks.So to kill more bucks,at least 1.5 times more,than does every year.Your ratio is going to get way out of wack.Even assuming that the deer born each year are 50% bucks,we are still killing a whole lot more bucks than does.Do this for 20 years and your buck:doe ratio will keep getting further apart.I am no biologist and nor do I play one on T.V.,but that is pretty simple to figure out.What TN needs to do is have a 1 buck and 3 doe limit like Ohio and other states do,to get the ratio in check.As long as you kill more bucks than does,it ain't going to happen as long as you aleady have at least 6 times as many does.

[Pike]

Sl, you if TN harvest's atleast 90,000 bucks per year out of a population of 1million deer, It is Mathematicly impossible for TN. to even have a Buck to doe ratio of 1:10. Here in PA. We harvest 80% of our total buck Population for decades, abd for most part we have had over 1 million hunter as well. and the majority of out hunters wouldn ot lower themsleves to shoot a doe, that is until recently. PA. has never had a buck to doe ratio that ws farhter apart than 1 buck for evey 5 doe =1.5 ratio. If TN. harvested 90,000 + bucks this past season and the buck to doe ratio was greater than 1:9 (which im sure it isnt even that high) You would not have had one antlerlerd buck left to harvest this season or to breed any doe. Pike

[sll]

Pike,as I mentioned before,there is no way that all of our does get bred.If you kill at least 1.5-2 times as many bucks than you do does,every year,how can it not be possible for the ratio to grow further apart every year?All I am saying is that you can not believe it until you see and expereience it for yourself.It is not uncommon for any of us on my end of the state to hunt 5 days in a row on 5 different farms and see 50-100 deer and maybe 2 or 3 of them be bucks.And every state kills a whole lot more deer on their gun hunts than they do on their bow and muzzleloader.We on my end of the state can not shoot does during gun season so there is no choice but to shoot nothing but bucks.What I am trying to say,as long as it is like this,you have no choice but to have a lot more does than bucks.How else can you explain the inbreeding problem we have?

[bks]

Lundy43123, If you compare what the $156 NR Tenn license entitles you to with what the $111 NR Oh license entitle me to I would say that it is a fair price both ways. We've already established that there are probably no deer here that you would be interested in traveling this far to hunt, but just for comparison's sake let's look at it. The $156 NR Tenn license entitles you to 3 bucks and probably as many does as you would care to shoot, 3 bearded turkeys is the spring and 1 either sex in the fall, and I promise you we have a healthy turkey population with many trophy gobblers around, bear and boar hunting if you chose, I'm not sure about the bag limits on these but they are covered with the license and all of our small game and varmit hunting. In short $156 gets you all the hunting Tenn has to offer except duck. Now on the other side my $111 NR Oh license gets me small game, varmit and 1 deer either sex. For me to fill my bag limts on deer and turkey it would cost me an additional $100 for 2 more deer tags, 2 spring and 1 fall turkey tag. Bringing the total to $211 for me to kill 3 deer and 3 turkeys in OH. Now don't get me wrong I'm not complaining but if you ask do I think it's fair? When you look at the whole picture Tenn. compared to Oh. Yes I'd say it's more than fair. As for some of the other states mentioned like Illinois, Kansas, Iowa and some others I could'nt agree more their fees and draw systems are ridiculous. I'm afraid big game hunting is fast becoming a rich mans sport.

[bks]

Pike , I hunt with sll and I promise you it is possible and we do have a buck to doe ratio of at atleast 1:20 or 25 here in east Tenn. If you would be interested in seeing it first hand you are more than welcome to come hunt with us anytime you like, not that the hunt would be worth your time or money. As I stated in an earlier post Tenn does'nt have a clue how to manage a deer herd. All of the commisioners are still stuck in the restoration mindset and could care less about quality deer management.

[Pike]

bks, If you harvest over 90,000 bucks and you have a total pop. 1 million deer. There is no way possible that your buck to doe ratio is more than 1:10 It is simple math, and I promise you that you do not harvest every buck in your state, even with over 1 million hunters, and a herd of over 1 million deer we can only manage to harvest 80% of our bucks here in PA. With a harvest of over 90,000 bucks and 1 million deer at the very worst, male deer make up 10% of your total population!! I dont know how I can make it any more simple for you to under stand. Pike

[sll]

Pike,let me make it simple for you to understand.Seeing IS believing,as of our feelings of how our state is being managed,we do not agree with what the TWRA is doing.I hunt a week in TN and see 100 deer and 2 are bucks,I hunt Ohio for 4 days and just see 9 deer and 6 are bucks and I was able to harvest the biggest one that I have killed in 25 years of hunting.BKS saw 15 deer and 13 were bucks.Ohio,we will see you again next year,it is that simple.;)

[bks]

Pike, you are missing our point. You are looking at statewide totals, we are in northeast Tenn. There is as much difference in east Tenn and west Tenn's deer herd and terrain as night and day. The state is divided into 2 units for deer hunting, bag limits and seasons, with the western unit have many more days to hunt and many more opportunities to kill does. We are only talking about the eastern unit so the statewide totals are misleading. Here in the eastern unit we can legally take 3 bucks and 3 does on the statewide open seasons if you hunt with bow, muzzeloader and rifle. It's a given that the majority of people only hunt during rifle season when it is buck only. So how is it not possible for the ratio to be so bad and getting worse? As little as 6 to 8 years ago you could legally kill as many as 11 bucks statewide in Tenn. on open hunts. That is why our deer herd is in the poor shape it's in today. And with the bag limits we have today in the eastern unit it's only getting worse. Like I said before, a few days hunting here will change your thinking. Come on down anytime.

[gamegetter1]

Where do you hunt in Ohio? What county, and is it public or private?

David

[Pike]

Sll & bks, I cannot log onto TNDeer.com for some reason, so can you post what was the total pop. and what was the total bucck harvest for last season in your zone. I under stand that you are harvesting 1.5 times the bucks than you are doe's but you are acting like a deer lives 20 years. And Yes it is fact that 50% of all fawns are born male!! I have even seen studies that say as much as 53% of all fawns are born male. Thanks, Pike

[sll]

Pike,as I stated,it is on their website and is broken down in 95 counties but does not have a total overall harvest between sexes,it does have each county broken down so keep trying maybe it will let you on later.Let me post some hypothecal stats:

1,000,000 deer total
50% born every year are bucks(your stats)
2 bucks killed to every 1 doe
20 year period
The same amount of each sex is born each year,but you take out twice as many bucks than you do does the previous year(remember for 20 years).We are not saying that a deer lives for 20 years,we are saying that it has been this way for 20 years.
How can you not each year get your ratio further and further away?

Gamegetter1,we mostly hunt in Jackson county on public land(Cooper Hollow or Wayne National Forest)

[bks]

Gamegetter1, we hunt southeast Ohio in Jackson County on public land.

[bks]

Pike, I don't know of anywhere they estimate the population by regions and I have'nt found the info on bucks harvested by region yet. I did find these numbers. The county we live and hunt in is usually the top county for deer harvest in our region. In the 2001 seasons here in Hawkins Co. there were 1816 antlered bucks killed and 103 button bucks killed for a total of 1919 bucks and only 738 does. Now I realize this is only one county but I looked at some other counties in our region and although the numbers may vary the percentages of bucks vs does are as bad or worse. Now you do the math. We'll continue to look for the other info you requested.

[atrkyhntr]

Hate to bust any bubbles here LOL but in no mamal population does the birth ratio set at 50% of either male or female... The female birth rate is always rounded off at 3-1 or better. Females are needed much more then males for any species to survive... its just natures way ;)
Now I can relate to our friends from Tn because I use to hunt Pa and infact was born and raised there and can tell you that it was not uncommon to see 50-100 bald heads everyday during gun season and never not once see a rack that was longer then a spike if you were lucky to see a spike or two at all...
Here is a simple math quiz like was asked to do by someone earlier....
I had in my area 100 deer to start with 1 year ago... last year all the does had twins which would equal now 300 deer total 1/2 being bucks except that we shot 90% of the bucks that year which really left me with this equation:
100 deer start with
+ 200 born (1/2 bucks per say)
- 90% buck kill
= leaves me with 300 total deer of which 150 are bucks of which 90% are harvested = 135 total bucks harvested which means my deer population after one season is now 165 deer with only 15 being bucks... 150 x 90% = 135 WHEW this is what are boys from Tn are trying to say... May not be right but by using their figures it sure looks like they have what Pa had years ago... Many deer but very few bucks and very very few mature bucks at that :( Now I am not sure what the doe harvest was but you can pretty much see the picture here and our friends from Tn need some major help to get things into a better balance...


I have even seen studies that say as much as 53% of all fawns are born male.
Sorry I just take all studies with a grain of salt... How many times have you guys read magazine articles this year that completly controdict what was wrote just the year or two previous... Most studies are so tempered the real truth can never rise thru all the crap that has already went in :eek: :confused:

[sll]

atrkyhntr,THANK YOU for having pity on us and understanding our formulas.Ohio is well managed and we feel that it is our best bet to kill a trophy buck not to far from our homes(4 1/2 hours).Your userid tells me you are a serious turkey hunter.Read my earlier thread about swapping out hunts,if us here in East TN have anything,it is an abundant population of them critters:D

[atrkyhntr]

Truth be known I do enjoy turkey hunting the best but spend my springs guiding at my guide service :D
I have swapped a couple hunts but never for turkey and they never equaled our deer hunting either so I'm out of the swap meets now ;) save what we have now for the paying clients :D

[Pike]

atrky said""Hate to bust any bubbles here LOL but in no mamal population does the birth ratio set at 50% of either male or female... The female birth rate is always rounded off at 3-1 or better. Females are needed much more then males for any species to survive... its just natures way
Please call your family doctor in the morning and ask him what the ratio for Male/ female Humans is at birth.

Now, according to Dr. Valirious Giest of BC. Canada, who is regarded around the world as the leading expert for wild Ungalate's state's and I quote""""" A nautural White tail herd that is void of hunting or predation will have a Buck to doe ratio of 87 to 89 mature bucks for every 100 mature doe's. He then goes on to state that the slightly lower amount of mature bucks is due to the fact that bucks have a slighty higher rate of natural mortality than does doe's. Pike

[Doesniper]

How about this TN; Try for at least one year to harvest does only. Shoot more than you can eat and donate the extras to charity. You will be helping the herd and the less fortunate at the same time. If the state DNR won't do the job isn't it ours to do? If the quality of bucks is poor why not shoot does? They taste better and are easier to handle.
A few years ago my family leased a small farm to hunt. During the 3 years of the lease we left the bucks alone on my parents 75 acre farm shooting does only. After the lease was up we began hunting bucks again at my parents. The first year we killed a 12-point and 10-point that measured around the 150's. The three years of the lease we shot on avg. 11 does a year, and only bucks with antlers as wide as their ears or wider. A friend of mine bought the farm we leased and said that he saw 3 big bucks opening day and shot one of them, A nice 140 class 10.
If a majority of TN hunters would not use their buck tags for at least 1 year (2 or 3 would be alot better), you could turn your herd around in a short time.

[sll]

Doesniper,things like that are what a lot of residents of TN would like to do but the TWRA will not do it because the TWRC will not let them for fear of losing license sales which equals loss of money to the TWRC's pockets.In our state,we have no DNR,the TN Wildlife Resources Association(TWRA) is self-funded.But the commision(TWRC) tells them what to do.Now this 13 member panel(TWRC) consists of the Governor of TN and 12 others that HE appoints.And those 12 appointees are all business owners,lawyers,doctors,etc......whoever donates the most money to the Governor's campain.Now,how will we as citizens of the state of TN get what we want with this happening?We never will.I am to the point of where I could care less what this state does,I for one am prepared to never hunt in this state again if that is what it takes.I will buy my Ohio license,spend a week or two in search of a trophy and possibly take a few does to eat on.But like I mentioned before,If the non-resident fees get so out of hand that the working man can not buy them,The DNR will do like TN does,they will raise the Ohio resident license to compensate for the loss of revenue.And we all know,resident or non-resident,that we do not want that to happen.;)

[Ðe§perado™]

Very good point sll, just never thought of it that way.

[bks]

Doesniper, you made a great point about if the state won't do there job it's up to us. I personally have not killed a buck on a statewide open hunt in Tenn. since the 2000 season. Although I have taken does each year and passed on some spikes and 3 points. The problem is for every hunter like me and sll there are 3 with the attitude of "if I don't kill this little buck the guy on the next farm will." or "I paid for my license I'll kill anything I want." As long as the law allows it I can't fault anyone for killing any deer they want. Our problem is the bag limits allow to many bucks and not enough does to be harvested. As sll said the TWRC is more concerned with making money than they are providing us with quality deer to hunt.

[bks]

Pike, once again you have some misleading information we nor any state that I know of in the US has a deer herd that is void of hunting or predation. Originally posted by Pike


Now, according to Dr. Valirious Giest of BC. Canada, who is regarded around the world as the leading expert for wild Ungalate's state's and I quote""""" A nautural White tail herd that is void of hunting or predation will have a Buck to doe ratio of 87 to 89 mature bucks for every 100 mature doe's. He then goes on to state that the slightly lower amount of mature bucks is due to the fact that bucks have a slighty higher rate of natural mortality than does doe's. Pike

[Pike]

BKS, DUH!!! I know that!! But what does his statement tell you? That male and female fawns are born at a rate of 1:1 !! Ask any biologist Who DR. Geist is and if fawns are born 1:1 and they will tell you , or do some reading. This is basic Whitetail biology that most 16 year old hunters know! tommorrow I will show that your buck to doe ratio in your zone is not 1:25 and not even close to that. I dont meen to be rude but you got a lot to learn, and there is not anything wrong with that!! just take the time to do some reading instead of watching buckmaster's on the TV. Pike

[atrkyhntr]

I like the point of donating extra deer to feed the hungry or some other worthy org... :D
I see there is a Hunters For The Hungry in Tenn also a link to find someone to process the deer:
http://www.state.tn.us/twra/hfh02.html

[bks]

Dr. Pike, First of all, I'm not interseted in shooting fawns. And secondly, you have missed my point again, the numbers I gave you in the earlier post prove that bucks are being killed 2.6:1 vs does, and that is since they lowered the bag limit on bucks to 3 from 11 a few years back. If you can't see how a ratio can get so screwed up under these conditions maybe it's you that has alot to learn. I don't sit here in Tn. and pretend that I can tell you about your deer herd in Pa. by punching buttons and I don't see what makes you think that you can sit in Pa. and tell me about the deer I've been hunting for 25 yrs here in Tn. I've offered to prove it to you in person if you'll just come on down but it sounds like you're going to punch some more more buttons and show me from several hundred miles away. So just go ahead and post it here and I'll get back with you after I watch my new Buckmasters video.

[Pike]

BKS & Sll, I have talked to A Deer Biologist from your state of Tenn. Named Mark Boerson , He states, That Unit A has a Buck to doe ratio of 1:3 , he said some counties may be slightly higher. And In Unit B which is the eastern unit, he state's that Unit B has a buck:ratio of between 1:5 and 1:7, He also states that some isolated area's might have a buck to doe ratio of as high as 1:10 but No entire County in the state has a buck to doe ratio higher than 1:7 .
Now I do not doubt you that your area has poor hunting, a B/D of 1:7 will cause some very poor hunting, Here in PA. we have harvested more bucks than doe's for over 50 years and we have never had a county that was over 1:6 an we harvest a far larger amount of bucks each year than TENN. does.

ATRKYHUNTER, Did you call your DR. today!! Sorry to burst your bubble!! Pike

[Pike]

bks & Sll, since you guys are both logged on, let me add this, In PA we harvest more bucks than TN. does bucks and doe's combined, Also we have also harvested more bucks than does for over 50 years!! Hopefully the 2002 season will be the first season that we harvested more doe's than bucks in our history, So I know what you are saying and I have been hunting in the same situation here in PA. as you guys in TN. all my life and I know it seems like 1:25 but it isnt, it is just that 1:7 makes it seem so and 1:7 causes very poor hunting. Pike

[sll]

Pike,when I ran across this site a couple of days ago ,I thought since I was going to be hunting in Ohio for years to come,that I would put my .02 cents in about hoping the state of Ohio would not raise their license fees.I had no idea that I needed a biologist degree in deer management.You can ask any biologist in the state of TN whatever you like,but the reason the ratio is how WE THE HUNTERS know what it is ,is because that biologist does not know what he is doing,he SUCKS at his job.I should not say that,he may know it,but the TWRC is not letting him do it correctly.The TWRC is not going to let him keep his job if he tells out-of-staters like you,that your chances of you coming to TN to kill a big buck is good because we have a lot more does than bucks,therefor not bringing more revenue into this state.IT AIN"T GONNA HAPPEN!A few post back you said there was NO WAY that the buck to doe ratio was even 1:10.But since you talked to that biologist today,he has convinced you of at least that much,you come hunt with us and we will have you believing the 1:25 part.

[bks]

Pike, This will be my last post on this subject. The invitation still stands for you or Mr. Mark Boerson to come to Hawkins County and if either of you can show me 1 buck for every 10 does we see I'll kiss your you know what and give you 2 hours to draw a crowd. No hard feeling but I gotta go it's time for realtree outdoors.:cool:

[Pike]

Sll, Get it right, I said there is no way that the state TN has a buck to doe ratio of 1:10 with a buck harvest of over 90,000 bucks. Yeh, its a big conspiracy!! The biologist are lying!!
ROFLMAO
Sll & BKS, We mock what we do not understand! 1:25, I cannot stop laughing!! Pike

[sll]

Pike,I did get it right,that is what you said.But when the biologist told you that there were places in the state that were 1:10 you then believed him.He is in Unit A,the western end of the state where all the politicians live and hunt,they do have a better ratio than our end.He has never even been in our region so he can only go by what the TWRA tells him.It ain't no conspiracy,it is the truth.You have noticed that we have not commented on PA's deer herd haven't you?That is because WE DON'T HAVE A FRIGGIN' CLUE about your state.You know,just like YOU DON'T HAVE A FRIGGIN' clue about ours.

[atrkyhntr]

Pike take a hike :rolleyes:
Your doing this thread no good and the great state of Pa a dis-service PLEASE grow-up... Your way put of line here son...
We need more mods around here gezzzz :rolleyes:
I've proved two former Ohio biologist wrong and now both are no longer working in their field here in Ohio... James Eaton and Mark Matherson Look it up <----

I'll simply ignore PIKE from here on out TYVM
I'd suggest Sll & BKS do the same this dude does not understand nada zip zilch 0

[Craig Fletcher]

Don't be so quick to judge Pike.

I don't know anything at all about the Buck to doe ratio of Tennessee, Nor do I have any real interest in finding out. But I think it is highly commendable that he IS MAKING AN EFFORT to educate himself and others by taking the time and doing the research to find answers. Whether the information he is receiving is correct, I don't know. I do know he can only give the info supplied to him. If it is incorrect, Then somebody needs to inform him by supplying factual material.

As for needing more mods, What for?
Isn't this the home of the free? If you don't agree, you're more than free to state your opinion. Do we need more mods to control YOUR opinion?

As I've stated in other posts, If anybody really wants to make a difference, the first thing one must do is educate him or her selves. I commend Pike for trying.

Good Luck and Good Hunting, Craig

[atrkyhntr]

Hey Craig Fletcher,
I am not here to offend anyone but ol' PIKE seems to not take anyone elses comments to be truthful but his own... seems he is trying to force feed us his way of thinking... I may be wrong and have been before but just seems liek that is how it is... He also started the off handed comments about the way others come-up with their replies/comments... I have read a few of your replies in some of the other threads on this board (not many) and see your a straight-up guy... I do not mean to offend anyone on this board... SORRY AGAIN...
As for more mods the reason is not to shut people up or control our opinions but to, via PM's or email, defuse a situation before it gets out of hand in a quiet non-abusive way. As an owner of an outdoor network and succesful forum I have seen the advantages of moderators per say ;)
I come here simply because this forum is an OHIO forum and I love our great state and all we offer sportsman. Hard to beat us from the Mississippi east :D

[Craig Fletcher]

Maybe I came across to strongly with my post. I'm not offended by your post or anyone elses usually. No reason for you to apologize to me.

As for Pike's statements. He does come across strong. That isn't a bad thing if his information is correct, if it isn't, then someone who has the correct info needs to correct him. I respect someone who has the will to say what they believe. I have more respect for the person who can correct another without making it a personal agenda.

Education is the key. The more we know, the more influence we have.

The Mods., in the role you stated, are a good idea. I'd just hate to see them start to delete posts because they may come across to strongly for someone's taste. I've seen that happen on another site. I believe it has really degraded the site because of that. Seems alot of the members are afraid to post anything contraversial for fear of being banned or censored.

In your words,
I come here simply because this forum is an OHIO forum and I love our great state and all we offer sportsman.

Good Luck and Safe Hunting, Craig

[Pike]

Craig, Thank you for your statement!!
I appreciate it!!


ATRKYHNTER, You are the one that questioned me and said and I quote{"""""Hate to bust any bubbles here LOL but in no mamal population does the birth ratio set at 50% of either male or female... The female birth rate is always rounded off at 3-1 or better. Females are needed much more then males for any species to survive... its just natures way """""}

Now considering the fact that humans are mammels alone bust Your Bubble as you call it!! And it is also fact that whitetail deer are born at a ratio of 1:1 , You might have proven those bilogist wrong , but I very easily proved you wrong!! And that is why your pissed and want me off this site!! Just because I showed a statement you made wasnt correct, and by the way, You were doing the same thing to me the Bust your bubble Mammel comment!! LMAO !! Oh, except you were wrong.

You know it is a very small world, I stopped in at a store callled Kerry Joe's in Noble co. (I think) To get some BBQ and a Budweiser Pounder And she recommended a guide service for Turkeys, Since we saw so many turkey's during deer season, the 4 of use wanted to come back out Hunt Turkey's for a week since we never turkey hunted before we were going to get a guide to learn the ropes for a week. Well the moral of the story is, I click on your link, and it turns out to be You!! Isnt that amazing, Pike

[Pike]

bks & sll, No hard feelings here either, and thanks for the offer!! But I would rather meet you in OH. to hunt with you guys, and just tell stories about how bad hunting is in our own state over a some beer's .Pike

[atrkyhntr]

Well PIKE I will do as I say and leave you alone you have an attitude I can do without..... Besides I did call my Dr and he said he didn't know but thought it around 50-50... My info came from a study MSU did backed by TSM ( I think its texas southern methodist ? ) sometime in the 70's and could well be another misinformed study... Just as any could be...

I hope KarriJo was looking her best when you were down there... To be honest there is so much puplic land down there a guide is not needed if a hunter has experience chasing longbeards... Oh by the way talk about a turkey hunting machine Chris Lewis who is married to KarriJo called in 19 birds to harvest last spring alone and could have had more if some shots were either taken or on the mark when the trigger was pulled...

I have a very good friend who owns Allegheny Wilderness Outfitters in Tionesta Pa that may work better for you for turkey hunting within your own state.... The link is on my website. He and a retired game warden, Ernie, pretty much do all the turkey guiding and I would say go with either as a guide. Top notch trout fishing too up in that area to make a whole day of it. His wife Pat is the best cook I have ever been around ;)

Anyway we have some very good hunting in our area but not the best in the state....

I think I know what forum your talking about Craig Fletcher if it ius then some of those members came over to my site and I do see some names here too from there... never know so few names so many users LOL

[bks]

No problem here Pike, I'll be there (in Ohio that is) sometime around the middle of Nov. :cool:

[Craig Fletcher]

Hey guys, Here's anarticle(click here) (http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/outdoors/article/0,1406,KNS_326_1318621,00.html) I found from the Knoxville News-Sentinel.

I feel really bad for you guys after reading this article. Not only does it say the TWRA doesn't have good deer management, it lacks leadership. It sounds as if Jeff Coggins has the right idea, but it will still take several years to bring it to fruition.

Good Luck, Craig

[Pike]

Craig, Thanks for posting the link to the article!! But it looks to be good and bad news for BKS and Sll. Because it looks like Coggins wants to get the herd headed in the right direction but it looks his motivation isnt for the right reasons. Dont get me wrong, tourist dollars are important, but he should be trying to improve the herd for the benefit of the herd and also the hunters of the state of TN. those 2 reasons should be good enough reasons to do so. Added tourist dollars should be just icing on the cake. They should be worried about the quality of hunting for residents of their state instead of trying to turn TN. into the next Illinois. Pike

[Craig Fletcher]

Although I think the end result will benefit residents more than Non residents,Your right, they should be saying they're trying to improve hunting for the residents of TN. with the possible income from NR's being a secondary benefit. Craig

[atrkyhntr]

Very nice read indeed...
I have a couple questions/observations...

1st ol' Jeff has his head screwed on straight and if I were from TN I'd try to contact this guy and become involved... no matter how much or how little I have to offer I'd get involved....

Also Pike he is doing this for the right reason and seems to know his politics... Not picking on you here just pointing out something that is overlooked many times, I know I've been there... Called POLITICS <---

Because it looks like Coggins wants to get the herd headed in the right direction but it looks his motivation isnt for the right reasons.

Without tossing in the following...

In Coggins' vision, Tennessee's deer management practices have changed and everybody from the governor's office to the Department of Tourism is actively selling the idea of Tennessee as a sportsman's paradise.
"Tennessee should be promoted as a destination state and, I think, the effort could be very successful," Coggins said. "Everything we need is here. Tennessee has the most beautiful country, the friendliest people, the tourist infrastructure and we have the land and we have the animals. What we don't have is the leadership."

He is being super smart here for a couple reasons... He is telling the Govn'r here is your ammo to move things in the right direction:
--> The state makes money Govn'r looks good <--
--> Elected officials can vote on a plan same reason as above <--
This is called POLITICS and without it nothing gets done so you must talk a language that elected officials understand to implement what you want to accomplish and by talking "tourist dollars" he has or will grab someones attention" ;)

What he needs to do is make the tourist dollars sound like the cake and the icing improved hunting conditions statewide :D

I have a question is the free-ranging wild hog hunting that good in Tennessee ? It sounds like a good way to start bringing in sportsman dollars...

THANKS FOR THE POST Craig

Here in Ohio I worked on a couple coal companies to set aside land for disabled hunter use only and after alittle pushing was brushed aside (not a prob at all) as state officials and coal company officials ironed out plans to benifit all concerned. Now the N W T F is also in the fold looking to donate money and work with our DNR, AEP officlas to create something for disabled hunters in SE Ohio... There was a spring turkey hunt with volenteers from a local N W T F Chapter taking out disabled hunters just last year to see what needs done to make the land in question more accesable for the handicaped
:cool:

[bks]

Craig, Thanks for the post, I had'nt seen that article. I don't think our problem is the TRWA (agency) which is our game wardens, biologist and these type people, the problem is they have their hands tied by the TWRC (commissioners) which is made up of DR.'s, lawyers and buisness owners appointed by the governor, (and you can imagine how they get appointed). The TWRC tells the TWRA what they can and can't do.
As far as the article I don't know MR. Coggins so I can't say what his motives are. I do know that Statehouse is a private club that offers guided hunts (that I can't afford) for deer and boar. But I have to agree with atrkyhntr, about the politics. If he does'nt put a big dollar sign $$$ in front of it the governor or the TWRC won't even look at it.
Atrkyhntr, we don't have any wild hogs here in east Tenn. (not the four legged ones anyway).:D But I hear there are plenty in middle Tenn. I've heard that if you have the time to locate them and are in good enough shape physically to get to them you can really rack up.
Now, enough of this, I did'nt come to this site to whine and complain about the poor quality of hunting in Tenn. I'll do that on tndeer.com. Let's talk about somewhere they know how to manage a herd and there is some good hunting with big bucks. OHIO :)

[Basementdweller]

My inlaws live near kingston TN. He says the biggest problem with the deer in TN is the poachers. Well they are subsistance hunters taking deer out of season. Say one family takes a deer every week or so that means you loose 30 to 50 deer a year out of the herd. How many familys their do it? Till they address the poverty in the state TN will always have small deer.

As far as Mr. Pike goes...he really means well and is an intense hunter.....but he really doesnt have anything to say about how we run our state. If we residents want to charge more to non resident to harvest game and fish in our state then so be it.

The general attitude here have been matching regional tag fees. Which is fair in my opinion.

this thread has gone farther than I ever thought it would.

[bks]

Basementdweller, Did you mean match regional fees (like Illinios) or did you mean match the hunter's home state fees for non-resident like it says on the poll? (In my case Tenn.) I hope it's the latter. Like I said before I really enjoy hunting in your state and hope I can continue to afford to do so.

In my area I don't think poaching is a problem like they say it is some other areas of the state.

[Basementdweller]

I dont consider Ill. in our region.