Telecheck: Upcoming disaster for Ohio bucks?

[bakerboy]

My Kentucky hunting buddies where telecheck has been around for a few years pretty much agree that nice bucks are now few and far between. They attribute this to telecheck, an excuse to kill as many bucks as you want to.

[jackalope]

My Kentucky hunting buddies where telecheck has been around for a few years pretty much agree that nice bucks are now few and far between. They attribute this to telecheck, an excuse to kill as many bucks as you want to.

We don't have telecheck now.. What's to stop me from printing off an internet tag and making copies of it? Then shooting a buck, temp tagging it, taking it home, and grabbing a photocopy tag from the stack and repeating until i run out of ink......

Point being there will always be a way to cheat.... Telecheck isn't the end of the world....


Maybe Kentucky's problems stem from almost an entire month of combined firearms seasons.

Or maybe because they only shot about 15,000 deer in archery and 105,000 in a combined month of firearm seasons.......


Just sayin..

[jbrown]

We don't have telecheck now.. What's to stop me from printing off an internet tag and making copies of it? Then shooting a buck, temp tagging it, taking it home, and grabbing a photocopy tag from the stack and repeating until i run out of ink......

Point being there will always be a way to cheat.... Telecheck isn't the end of the world....


Maybe Kentucky's problems stem from almost an entire month of combined firearms seasons.

Or may because they only shot about 15,000 deer in archery and 105,000 in a combined month of firearm seasons.......


Just sayin..


Yea... what Jack said. Kentucky has far bigger problems than Telecheck when it comes to managing their deer herd.

[CritterGitter]

Heh, heh.....I suppose Kentucky never had a problem with poaching....in season or out before tele-chek then huh? :whistle:

Ohio is a one buck state and for all good honest sportsmen it will remain that way even after Tele-chek. Might be a few more get wacked each season......but this is not going to have a drastic affect on the number or quality of bucks we see each fall.

[deerhunt45]

Telecheck: Upcoming disaster for Ohio bucks?

I don't think so. The system we have now is just as ripe for abuse. The blatant abusers of the hunting laws and regulations...i.e. poachers, will do so regardless. Few do it out of necessity, most do it out of total selfishness and disregard. Says alot about a person's over all character don't you think?

My Kentucky hunting buddies where telecheck has been around for a few years pretty much agree that nice bucks are now few and far between. They attribute this to telecheck, an excuse to kill as many bucks as you want to.

Interesting testimony even though it is second hand. Why do they attribute this to telechek? Do your buddies hunt all over the state? If they are seeing abuse of the system where they hunt can they do something about it? Lots of unanswered questions from here...

[jackalope]

Heh, heh.....I suppose Kentucky never had a problem with poaching....in season or out before tele-chek then huh? :whistle:

Ohio is a one buck state and for all good honest sportsmen it will remain that way even after Tele-chek. Might be a few more get wacked each season......but this is not going to have a drastic affect on the number or quality of bucks we see each fall.

KY is a 1 buck too.. They were not always that way though.. I can't remember when they changed it. But their B&C entries did go up a few years after going to a 1 buck...

No, I think KYs problem is the lengthy firearms and not enough bowhunting...

Ky killed 120,000 deer last year, 105,000 were killed with a firearm... That right there is KYs problem... When you have numbers like that combined with the ability for a 200 yard shot vs a 40 yard one.. More bucks will be killed..

And Ky shoots about 1 doe for 1 buck..

% Male 50.7%
% Female 49.3

But here is where the numbers go bad...

Archery 14,049
Crossbow 1,453
Total 15,502

Firearm 88,731
Muzzleloader 16,377
Total 105,108


And can only shoot a buck and a doe on a single tag but can buy another tag to shoot 2 more does.. It's my guess people aren't buying that 2nd 2 doe tag..


IMO they need to keep the 1 buck rule but make it archery only for 3 years and sell it as 1 tag..

And sell another tag good in archery and gun for 3 does, and make it cheap.

This would force people to archery hunt bucks for 3 years
And would force gun hunters and archery hunters to start wacking does..

Or tons of gun hunters would just say screw it and not hunt for 3 years.. Boy that would spell trouble..

Or they would come to ohio... OH Crap!! Nevermind scratch this plan..

I don't know.... But what they are doing ain't right.. That buck to doe probably needs to be like 25% Bucks to 75% does killed..

[Pike]

Since I am not a resident of OH. I dont have a say on this topic nor should I but If I was a resident I would be making my voice heard on this topic! When the new system is implemented poaching of bucks will increase, it will just be like here in PA., Buy the wife or another non hunter (who has never hunted and never wanted to) a tag, shoot a buck and fill their tag first send in the harvest report card and go buck hunting again. With the current check in system the wife/ non hunter had to check in the deer at the check station which trust me, greatly reduces guys buying their wife or non hunters etc. a lic. because they will not do it. And if the poacher cant check in the deer and get one of those cool metal bands he cant get the deer mounted or show off pics of it ( the whole reason poachers poach bucks is to brag to others ) because they never checked the deer in to get a metal band and with out the metal band no taxidermist will accept the deer even here in PA.
But with the new telecheck system the poacher will just make the phone call for the wife or non hunter who they bought the extra lic. for and then drive it to the taxidermist and be back afield trying to fill their buck tag the very next day. Pike

[wallydog1]

Benefits of the new system
License sales and game-check transactions would be performed in real time and available during holidays when many license sales outlets/check stations are closed.
Faster and easier, more efficient, reduced waiting times for customers.
Will save hunters and anglers on fuel costs, time, and frustrations with closed license sales outlets/check stations, which equates to more time in the field.
Helps to ensure customers are properly licensed.
The system will not sell to those under license suspension or other restrictions.
Would allow biologists and law enforcement to electronically gather data to manage wildlife and enforce Ohio’s hunting regulations.

[geezer II]

If ya shoot a "

doe - press 1
buck press 2
missed press 0
poached one - dial 1-800 UHM DUMB
button buck - send a pm ta Thunderflight
BigBoy - pm coonie

:whistle: :mischeif:

[CARPN-JAKE]

I can't wait for telecheck..The people that break the law are gonna find a way to break the law regardless of the tagging system...I hate having to find a check station to tag a deer during early season. Most states now adays don't use metal tags anyways.
As far as it hurtin Kentuckys big deer it seemsike they are killing as many big deer as always...A goup guys I know drug 3 over 150 out of the woods over the weekend...And also a 135 one of the guys 12 yr old sons shot...

[laxin]

It would be naive to think people will not cheat the system, but those who feel the need are probably cheating it now. I think telecheck is a step in the right direction.

I feel someone is more likely to use a phone/internet to check a deer in from home (when they shot the deer out back) then to drag it to the house, load it into the truck and drive it across the county to an open check station.

Pike, to your specific example, peopled can indeed illegally kill a buck, check it in and go out for another with someone else’s tag. Problem is, if the 2nd deer is that impressive, as said the individual is going to want to brag about it and show it off. Tough to do when you may have already checked one in under your own name. But hey, the wife in the example took one hell of a deer :mischeif:. If they use the wife’s tag on the 1st one because it wasn’t big, then why shoot to begin with if they are interested in growing/harvesting large mature bucks to brag about. It is my belief the person will probably run their mouth enough that someone eventual rats them out. So I guess the debate becomes, if one is going to break the law on bag limits, what makes the buck big enough to use your tag vs. someone else’s???

Either way, perhaps I am being naive, but as I said, I feel people would brag enough till they end up getting caught.

[Mountaineer]

Im going to agree with Pike. Checkstations help keep the poachers from poaching...It also helps with the local economy..Its a gathering place for hunters to share stories..show off their bucks etc etc..First place i went was the check station when i got my bucks..Spent some money on food..got my metal band..met some hunters ..swapped a few stories...Now that will all be gone.

Ohio is a great state for deer hunting because of the way things are or were..the more ohio becomes Inline with pennsylvania in terms of management then ohio will become like PA ..which in my opion offers some of the worst hunting in the nation...i spent a lifetime hunting PA and its one of the most miserable places to hunt in the country.

[MCSO28]

Checkstations help keep the poachers from poaching


No, they keep poachers from tagging poached deer..

Look at the number of us who do our own processing.. If someone is brazen enough to illegally kill a deer, no check station is going to keep them from pulling in the garage and putting that deer in the freezer themselves..
All this is going to do is turn more poached deer into legally tagged deer. ie: bucks checked as does, cut up and in the freezer. Racks thrown out.. Sure, they can probably differenciate male from female by testing the meat. But they can't get the meat without search warrants, and cant get search warrants without evidence. (which is now destroyed, or in the out of reach freezer)..

Check stations add the human element of suspicioun to the mix.. If something looked odd or questionable it got looked into or noted.. That element definetely kept Jimbob poacher from TAGGING a buck as a doe.. But it didn't keep him from killing the deer..

My concern is for the mom and pop businesses out there who rely on the hunting public as a way of life. The ones who make as much money during gun week (selling to hunters/rubber neckers looking at the deer being checked), as they do in months before and after..

Most all of us can remember not only last year, but decades ago, driving into the check station looking at all the deer. Most spending money while they are there.. Those days are gone!

Its the computer age. We must adapt.

[HeartShot]

Definetly a disaster waiting to happen

[STUEYSDAD]

Most of the check stations in my neck of woods also take pictures of the bucks they check in and put them on display for all to see. I will miss this.Its nice to see pictures with the smiles of the young hunters during youth season also.

[ohiosam]

A few thoughts from my experience.

I didn't poach deer before telecheck and I won't poach deer after telecheck.

I spend very little money at check stations while checking deer.

It is nice to be able to talk to the people at the stations and find out how the local kill has been compared to other years.

The folks at the check stations barely look at the deer being checked. If they did I don't think most could tell the difference between a highpower rifle wound and an arrow wound.

I have never seen anyone from the ODNR at the check station weighing, aging or checking tags.

I know an employee of local station that was tagging small bucks as does for his buddies. He was fired when the boss found out.

[Wildman18]

I was just on the phone with a buddy from KY and yes tele checking will hurt things he is from Ohio and has lived in KY for the last 10years and it's funny we just talked about this very thing earlier to day. It make law enforcement lazy and it opens the door to easier poaching it's a bad thing and one would be foolish to say other.

Just my 2 cent's it will not chang things but facts are facts!!!!

[jackalope]

A few thoughts from my experience.

I didn't poach deer before telecheck and I won't poach deer after telecheck.

I spend very little money at check stations while checking deer.

It is nice to be able to talk to the people at the stations and find out how the local kill has been compared to other years.

The folks at the check stations barely look at the deer being checked. If they did I don't think most could tell the difference between a highpower rifle wound and an arrow wound.

I have never seen anyone from the ODNR at the check station weighing, aging or checking tags.

I know an employee of local station that was tagging small bucks as does for his buddies. He was fired when the boss found out.

With Telecheck you will be able to do that from the comfort of home on a daily basis.. And see all counties not just yours or a single check station..

You can see maps, weapon types, doe or buck.. Tons of info..

http://fw.ky.gov/navigation.aspx?cid=559&navpath=C741

:bouncy::bouncy:

[Mountaineer]

I think one problem will be is that hunters will kill a buck get it home and stuff it in the freezer..not check it in..and try and hunt for something bigger..If they dont get one then they may or may not telecheck it in later..i think it opens up the doors for illegal 2 buck killings...or Have a Nonhunter telecheck it in...heck..a hunter could actually kill as many bucks per season as many Nonhunter friends that'll telecheck it in for them.

The biggest thing that was on my mind when i killed my ohio bucks was getting it to a check station..that was first priority...get the metal band on the buck.

[antiqucycle]

Never see the ODNR at check station? I do all the time, and during gun season, I am pretty certain, the Wo's stop in them daily to get the kill numbers and pickup the sheets so headquarters can do press releases. so telechek will eliminate some drive time for wardens.
I have heard many stories of people who run the check stations calling the wo to report suspicious kills. and likewise, who got busted. Like the stories of people trying to ckeck in a brown goat.
As far as poaching, I think the real kill is 35% higher than the official count.

[CARPN-JAKE]

Another nice thing about telecheck is you can check and see if someone tagged a deer in...For example you hear that so and so down the street shot a buck...You can get online and see if they checked it under their name, if they threw their wifes tag on it, or didn't tag it at all...
I hate the way the system is now here in Ohio myself. I don't spend money at the check station now other than to buy a soda or something...I hate going there during gun season and waiting forever to check a deer...I hate not shooting does in the early season cause I know I won't make it to the check station before they close so I won't be able to quarter her up and get her cold..

[ohiosam]

Never see the ODNR at check station? I do all the time, and during gun season, .

Like I said I have never seen anyone from ODNR at the weighing, aging or checking tags. There was one exception and that was years ago when there was a check station at Beaver Creek State Park that was run by the ODNR. All the rest of my deer were checked in Columbiana at the Sport Shack(back when it was open) or Reds bait shop. I have occasionally seen WOs there dropping off license supplies or picking up reports. Maybe it's just the WOs in my area are out in the field and don't hang out at the check stations. Over the years I have checked enough deer and turkeys (between me and my kids the number is substatial) to know if it was common for them to be there.

We have a new Game Warden, maybe he'll be different and be around this years.

[jackalope]

Most of the check stations I've been to just had me fill out the paperwork on the counter then handed me the metal tag to go put on the deer.

I could have put rumple stilskin on the paper for all they knew. And tagged an elephant with the tag..

[Gern186]

With Telecheck you will be able to do that from the comfort of home on a daily basis.. And see all counties not just yours or a single check station..

You can see maps, weapon types, doe or buck.. Tons of info..

http://fw.ky.gov/navigation.aspx?cid=559&navpath=C741

:bouncy::bouncy:


That sounds good on paper, but if the deer is reported incorrectly then the information is garbage to begin with.:16suspect1:
That kind of information could still be available without the telecheck system.

[bowhunter1023]

I can tell you right not that the ODNR is more likely to get the correct information from me calling in, than they are from the check station I use. Let's be honest, who is more suited to convey the vital statistics to the ODNR? A responsible hunter or someone half-witted woman that works night at the corner gas station? I have seen some stuff and been asked some questions when checking in deer or just hanging around watching them roll in that would make the DNR cringe. One girl is notorious for not fastening the tags making them easy to reuse if one so desired and that is only IF she comes out. More often than not, she will give you the tag and ask you to tag it and bring in the temp tag. She just handed me my tag this year so I could do it and I told her she could get in trouble for not doing it herself and her response was: "Tagging deer is not in my job description." To which I replied: "Well it is from September through January so you might wanna figure out the right way to do it."

This is another Chicken Little scenario in my opinion. Telecheck has pros and cons as does everything else including the system we currently use. To be honest, I could care less. It does not effect how I hunt and I have no real fears that it will ever effect my actual hunting and the quality of it.

[antiqucycle]

people forget to renew their license plates, drivers licenses, once they get the deer home, unless its a buck, they are not going bother to call in. I dont recall, how long you will have to call in, so if they simply forget that night, they probably will never call the deer in.
And the Amish have a perfect excuse, no phone, no computer, no electricity

[Mountaineer]

Anti..

Good point because it happened to me in missouri...Ive hunted spring turkey in missouri since about 1993..when we killed a bird..we immediately took it to the check station..It was a routine..took the bird in..Got it weighed..chated with the local farmers..hunters..got something to eat..etc.etc..Here recently..missouri went to the telecheck station..the first year..i killed a bird..got back to my hotel room and took a nap..next thing i knew it was 10pm..I slept pass the telecheck deadline time..It was a fiasco when i called in the next day..I told them over the phone i overslept pass the 10pm deadline..in the end..i got it straightend out but with alot of headaches.

No checkstations takes something away from the closure of the hunt.....Its all based on lazyness..ODNR officials that dont want to deal with it..Lazy hunters who dont want to drive to check em in...Just pure laziness:irked:

[Fish-n-Fool]

I don't see where the negatives outweigh the positives. The first time I heard about this system I had a kneejerk reaction until I thought about.

IMO it won't change much, if anything it may increase the number of people getting busted. It will be fast and easy for law enforcement to run reports in any format they want? For instance, show me all new deer permit applications for 2009 - you suddenly register your wife and she tags a buck (by the way there will be records on # points, etc). All they have to do is start asking questions.

I butcher my own deer. I can surely tell you I could whack a deer, bring it home and butcher it in the closed quarters of my garage and nobody would be the wiser. Just as many others have said there are people doing this and those people will continue to do this. Those of us that obey the rules will continue to do so.

The sky isn't falling

[Lance]

To me tele-check is only a step away from being as bad as moving to a 2-buck limit. I grew up hunting MI where you don't have to check your deer and I can tell you word one that I know of PLENTY of wives and kids that never hunted and have their names on filled buck tags because they didn't have to go in to a check station to make it legal. And this was at a time when you could legally shoot 4 bucks as it was. Rest assured telecheck will be abused here, probably even more so because of the bucks we have. And yes to me the Sky IS falling on this one and I'm not even a devoted big buck hunter like I used to be.

[rshultz3205]

wont they still have the conventional check in spots also? theres one 1.5 miles down the road from me and its never been a problem. never busy and never other hunters there when i check my deers in. we live in a small town with few hunters so not a big group ever there. but never seen the game warden there. Even with the regular check in stations how would they know you werent your dad or brother checking in the deer? they never ask for ID. you can still check in deer as a friend or family member witht the old way anyways. there will always be people cheating the system. but with this telle check we will still have temp tags right?

[Pike]

1023 I dont know seems like those of us that have used both type of check systems think that this is a huge mistake. I suggest that you do some research on this subject and check out the state of MD. (where I also hunt)
a few years ago they went from the check station system to the telecheck system. Their harvest stats etc. have become alot less accurate with the telecheck system especially with their doe harvest stats because they now do not have a clue how many deer are being harvested especially the doe's that are being harvested. Pike

[bowhunter1023]

I'm not saying I am for or against the Tele-check system. Personally, I think if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But at the same time, I am pro-ODNR and I trust the folks in Columbus to make these types of decisions. This is not being done on a whim and I'm sure all the pros, cons, and present day examples have been reviewed and debated. At the end of the day, my opinion does not matter and I'll do my part as a responsible sportsman to ensure the Tele-check system is not abused when I am involved.

Tele-check does not make it any easier or harder to cheat the system. As of today, we have uninformed gas station attendants in charge of our check-in system. It is just as easy for me to get my sister, wife, cousin, or buddy to tag in a second buck right now as it will be with Tele-check. They only difference will be I can't fill up my Jeep and get beer while I'm doing it. People who want to break the law will do so regardless of what package the laws are presented in. Sure, Tele-check might open some doors for more cheating, but I like to believe that the majority of the sportsman in this state are upstanding individuals that will make that phone call after a harvest. Look at the rise Missouri has taken in the past few years in regards to big buck harvests. They use Tele-check and it does not seem to have hindered the growth of trophy caliber deer. I see all this talk about inaccurate numbers and I just laugh to myself knowing they are already messed up and yet the DNR is still doing a fine job of managing the herd. And no one said this was permanent. If this does turn out to be a fiasco, have some faith that the folks in Columbus will realize that and makes corrections accordingly.

At the end of the day, its still great to be a BuckEye and a deer hunter regardless of what steps I have to take to get a tag on the OBB in the bed of the truck. I'm not all that concerned at this point...

[ohiosam]

OK lets go with the idea the poaching of bucks will skyrocket with telecheck which will mean less big bucks. Seems then many of the problems some of you guys have with leasing and NRs should go away. :dizzy:

So if you oppose leasing and NRs you must favor telecheck:mischeif:;)

[Mountaineer]

Ohiosam

Yeah..Maybe it will destroy the quality of hunting which means ODNR wont have a leg to stand on when it comes time to increase license fees..When Ohio becomes like PA..the ONDR will have to start paying hunters to hunt.:D

[Fish-n-Fool]

I still believe it will take less man hours to research situations that should be investigated by a live officer. I mean, one person can sit and run queries in this database and pull up any information they would like.

For example, I want to see all new deer permit holders for the initial year of telecheck - at the push of a button they have a list with DOB, address, etc. Maybe they do some "profiling" and take a look at say kids under age 12 that harvested a buck with a bow. Maybe they pull women. Maybe they pull all addresses that tagged multiple bucks, etc. It takes the same amount of man hours to physically investigate, but much less time to come up with people to interview. Right now we rely on tips and actual witnessing by an officer. Nobody should be overbothered by an interview from a game officer (unless they have something(s) to hide)

I'll admit I don't have experience with the system except for my wife's family in Michigan. But it isn't telecheck causing the buck problems in MI, it's the limits (or lack there of). IMO the # of additional trophy bucks that get poached won't increase from this system - it's way too easy with the current system. I've said it before, but I personally know of a guy that shoots EVERY mature buck he gets a crack at. He has several tags lined up before the season opener. He is also a member of the OBBC and has registered bucks in the club. I used to get irritated to no end with guys like this - then I realized there was nothing I could do about it (after MANY failed attempts to get ODNRs attention - they didn't even return e-mails or phone calls; the 800-TIP line hasn't helped either). Now I just worry about me and those guys that hunt with me. You won't cheat the system if you hunt with me, or even share a property with me. If I find out you will be reported to the landowner first and the warden immediately after.

[Wildman18]

I can tell you for a face that the #'s of deer killed will drop dramatically when or if the tela check in comes in effect.

Also how easy will it be for uncle Joe and aunt sue to check in cousin bobs deer/ Easy ans hell. If it's not broke don't fix it. That is the best quote I have heard. the old way is the best way.

[Mountaineer]

Ohios big bucks and balanced deer herd was created with checkstation data.:tsk:

[laxin]

So if people are so sure that our herd balance and quality of bucks are going to go to ***** due to this change, then that means we are labeling the general hunting population of Ohio as a bunch of law breaking killers...?!?!?!:irked::irked::irked:

Not really what I would have picked as terms to label sportsman who enjoy the outdoors and participating in the conservation of wildlife and habitat. I guess I would like to give the benefit of the doubt that the majority of the hunters here in Ohio are indeed sportsman who understand that if they want to preserve the quality of their hunts/trophy capabilities, then well, they cannot shoot every spike/1.5 year old and doe that pass within range of them.

I cannot imagine there will be a significant increase in law breaking individuals that pursue whitetails. In other words, I don't want to believe that many who currently abide by the law, and maintain some level of dignity, integrity and sportsmanship will throw their reputations out the window to take more deer.

Will there be an increase of deer taken and not properly checked in...probably. I won't argue that it will happen. However, is it really going to be of a level to drastically impact our herd in a nagative way? Probably not.

Either way, if you feel so strongly that this will occur, then I guess we owe it to ourselves to do all we can to influence others to follow the new process. Additionally, we can all be eyes and ears for the DNR.

[Pike]

Laxin. here in PA. with our current check in system PA. hunters have averaged just under a 40% reporting rate on harvested deer over the last 15 years and just by looking at the 2009 OH. deer harvest, 450,000 OH. deer hunters checked in 252,000 deer. That tells you that very few OH. hunters did not drive their deer to a check station last year. Im not saying OH. hunters are any worse than PA. hunters when it comes being honest but their not any better either, there is, lazy dishonest slob hunters in both states, but the check station system keeps them more honest. If I had a vote to change PA.'s current check in system my vote would be to copy OH.'s current check station system. Pike

[antiqucycle]

So some guy shoots a 22" wide buck, he gets it home, scores the rack himself and its a 130. not big enough, he telechecks the "wife's buck" and he goes out the next day hunting again. none of his buddies knew he shot that one. so he can brag the next buck. well thats one buck I never got a chance to shoot.
Thats two less bucks I will ever get a chance at.

[Lance]

Laxin,

Actually I think the majority of hunters are good. I think it will be a mix, some people will honestly just forget while their are others that just won't do it out of spite. I don't expect the reporting to be drastically off by I do expect to see the number of bucks shot to increase.

[Mountaineer]

PA has statewide antler restrictions and its been ineffect since about 2002..PA does not have checkstations...Even with Antler restrictions, PA still does not even compare to Ohio quality of deer....So..Ohio can run circles around PA in terms of herd management and doit without any type of Antler restrictions..Why??..Could it be the Checkstations?.

Real factual data trumps statistical BS :irked:

[ohiosam]

PA has statewide antler restrictions and its been ineffect since about 2002..PA does not have checkstations...Even with Antler restrictions, PA still does not even compare to Ohio quality of deer....So..Ohio can run circles around PA in terms of herd management and doit without any type of Antler restrictions..Why??..Could it be the Checkstations?.

Real factual data trumps statistical BS :irked:

If PA hunters aren't checking deer what difference do antler restrictions make?

I'm not sure you really understand the (old) mindset of PA hunters. Traditionally it's been shoot any buck and never shoot a doe. The easy, cheap doe tags and the antler restrictions were a way to force PA hunters away from that paradigm. It seems to be working and the improvement in quality have been phenomenal.

Ohio didn't need the antler restrictions because it has long had a more liberal doe harvest and avoided the over population problems PA suffered. I posted last winter a line out of a ODNR publication from the 50's that said then states like PA had too many deer and need more does killed and Ohio was trying to avoid that problem.

[MCSO28]

PA has statewide antler restrictions and its been ineffect since about 2002..PA does not have checkstations...Even with Antler restrictions, PA still does not even compare to Ohio quality of deer....So..Ohio can run circles around PA in terms of herd management and doit without any type of Antler restrictions..Why??..Could it be the Checkstations?.

Real factual data trumps statistical BS :irked:


Does PA have the genetics Ohio has?

Do PA hunters let smaller/younger bucks walk?

Do PA hunters see a "barely legal" buck and see it as "I better kill that monster I may never see another one this season?"

Do PA hunters use shotguns or rifles?

Does PA have 2/3 of their land mass covered by row crops to feed the deer?

Does PA have the same topography Ohio has?

Go to the areas in Ohio that have similar topography as PA.. The deer will still be bigger and better than PA (because of management), but compared to other areas of Ohio, are still sub par for the most part compared to the rest of the state..

All that "factual data" makes Ohio what it is over PA.. As well as MANY other factors.. Not the fact that we have check stations..

I have personally witnessed hunters in PA looking at what we would consider a 1.5 or 2.5 year old spindley 6 or 8 point as literally a monster deer.. Very few hunters over there would allow that deer to walk.. Until they do, PA will never compare to Ohio..

Get rid of the antler restrictions.. Dont allow ANY bucks to be killed for 3 years. Kill as many does as they can possibly kill during that time.. Then 3 years from now, you will have bigger bucks, less does, and better hunting.. Thats "factual data"..

Antler restrictions dont make better deer.. aggressive herd management does.. I believe if ya turned our DOW loose in PA for a few years, PA would have better hunting... just my opinion.. But the proof is there...

[TheCream]

Im going to agree with Pike. Checkstations help keep the poachers from poaching...It also helps with the local economy..Its a gathering place for hunters to share stories..show off their bucks etc etc..First place i went was the check station when i got my bucks..Spent some money on food..got my metal band..met some hunters ..swapped a few stories...Now that will all be gone.

Ohio is a great state for deer hunting because of the way things are or were..the more ohio becomes Inline with pennsylvania in terms of management then ohio will become like PA ..which in my opion offers some of the worst hunting in the nation...i spent a lifetime hunting PA and its one of the most miserable places to hunt in the country.

I'm curious what the check system has to do with herd management? The current system is far from perfect and it hasn't had a drastic effect on anything from what I have seen. People cheat the current system, people poach and don't even bother with the system! The bottom line is that we manage the herd, the check system won't have any effect at all where I hunt. Why is that? Because I and my friends follow the rules/laws and manage the land ourselves. The quality of the deer hunting where I hunt is what we make it. Poachers are everywhere, public land and private, busy paved roads and secluded gravel roads. They always have been there and they always will be there, regardless of the check system. And I'd be willing to bet the people who will try to cheat TeleCheck are the same people cheating the current system! You say check stations will lose out, and to that point I somewhat agree. I do the same as you, go check my deer in and buy a drink and maybe a snack. That might take a hit. However, check stations are NOT a deterrant to poachers or cheating the tag system because I have heard of too many people that do it. And if someone is afraid to get caught at the check station, they probably just won't check it, period! In my area, the most common poaching practice I have seen the leftovers from, however, is just cracking the deer with a rifle, hacking the rack off, and leaving the rest. Those folks aren't all that worried about checking the deer in, I don't think. :rolleyes:

[antiqucycle]

The checking system does tell the state where(county), how many deer are killed and I would assume the state uses this info to decide which counties are in what zone. And the bag limits are set by zones.

as for big brother watching, will the Telechek system record your phone number that you called from? I hate getting junk mail from auto warranty companies that is the fault of the DMV that sells your address to the marketing companies. Will the ONDR be selling hunter addresses? to Jackie Bushwacker? or are they promising a privacy?

The ODNR no doubt sells hunting license info lists to magazines already

[Pike]

PA has statewide antler restrictions and its been ineffect since about 2002..PA does not have checkstations...Even with Antler restrictions, PA still does not even compare to Ohio quality of deer....So..Ohio can run circles around PA in terms of herd management and doit without any type of Antler restrictions..Why??..Could it be the Checkstations?.

Real factual data trumps statistical BS :irked:

I agree 100%!! Pike

[Pike]

Does PA have the genetics Ohio has?

Do PA hunters let smaller/younger bucks walk?

Do PA hunters see a "barely legal" buck and see it as "I better kill that monster I may never see another one this season?"

Do PA hunters use shotguns or rifles?

Does PA have 2/3 of their land mass covered by row crops to feed the deer?

Does PA have the same topography Ohio has?

Go to the areas in Ohio that have similar topography as PA.. The deer will still be bigger and better than PA (because of management), but compared to other areas of Ohio, are still sub par for the most part compared to the rest of the state..

All that "factual data" makes Ohio what it is over PA.. As well as MANY other factors.. Not the fact that we have check stations..

I have personally witnessed hunters in PA looking at what we would consider a 1.5 or 2.5 year old spindley 6 or 8 point as literally a monster deer.. Very few hunters over there would allow that deer to walk.. Until they do, PA will never compare to Ohio..

Get rid of the antler restrictions.. Dont allow ANY bucks to be killed for 3 years. Kill as many does as they can possibly kill during that time.. Then 3 years from now, you will have bigger bucks, less does, and better hunting.. Thats "factual data"..

Antler restrictions dont make better deer.. aggressive herd management does.. I believe if ya turned our DOW loose in PA for a few years, PA would have better hunting... just my opinion.. But the proof is there...

Question #1. Yes PA.'s deer have the exact same genetic potential as OH.'s deer.

Qestion #2. I have been hunting in OH. for 10 years now and the only difference I see between the avg. PA. hunter and the average OH. hunter is that most hunters from both states shoot the first buck they see but the average OH. hunter does not have a problem with shooting doe's.

Question #3. I agree 100% but the average OH. hunter has the same mindset.

Question # 4. PA. uses rifles but the average distance in the USA for harvested whitetails with firearms is 38 yards and todays shotguns and inlines are not the the same shotguns and ML's our parents used.


Question # 5 no 2/3 of our state isnt covered in row crops but PA. has mor acres of ag crops than OH. does. (doesnt matter regardless because row or Ag. crops isnt the reason OH. deer are larger)

Question #6 Yes PA.'s topography is very similar to OH.'s in most area's.
(other than the mountains) We also share a very similar climate and growing season aswell.

Question #6 Management isnt the reason, The area's I hunt in OH. have more Deer per square mile than the area's I hunt here in PA., We have also harvested more antlerless deer than antlered deer over the last 9 years according to the PGC., and according to the ODNR. OH. hunters havent.
We have close to 1 million deer hunters who spend more days afield on avg. and OH. has 450,000 deer hunters.


There is 2 reasons as of why OH.'s deer are larger,
first is OH. has superior soil in regards to mineral content compared to PA.
(with the exception of the exteme western part of PA. which has mineral rich soil just like OH. does)
2nd is we have over twice as many deer hunters than OH. does and OH. has more deer per square mile on average. Our deer dont get a chance to reach 3 years of age( bucks and doe's) let alone 4 + years of age and if OH. had more hunters per square mile to be similar to PA. and less deer on average per square mile to be similar to PA. OH.'s deer wouldnt have a chance to reach 3 years of age either. Pike

[jbrown]

Antler restrictions are about the worst herd management tool there is, IMO. If I'm not mistaken, PA requires 3 pts per antlers, or 4 pts per antler in some areas. Hell, in Ohio most 6 pointers and a lot of 8 pointers are only 1.5 years old. Granted Ohio has great genetics, great soil, and great game managers... BUT how is shooting a bunch of basket-racked 1.5 yr olds and letting spike 1.5 yr olds walk going to help buck quality??? It basically promotes the spread of poor genetics. Like Cream said we Ohioans, in conjuction with ODNR, are the main reason for Ohio's great deer hunting... the checkstations have very little to do with it. PA hunters need to shoot more does and learn the difference between mature and immature bucks if they want better deer hunting.

You guys that are afraid of this telecheck system need to just relax. If it doesn't work they will do away with it. And just because you think it doesn't work in other states doesn't mean it will fail in Ohio. You have to remember that the Ohio DNR is one of the best in the country... they know what works and what doesn't. And they wouldn't change something if the potential benefits didn't outweigh the costs. I don't believe in the "don't fix it if it isn't broke" mentality. If that were the norm, how the hell would we be sending emails, ordering a pizza, and watching a movie on our phones, at the same time. Technology changes people, and most of the time it's for the best. I see nothing but good things to come from the telecheck system.

[antiqucycle]

Don'f forget, if its not POSTED or a safety zone, you can tresspass and hunt in Pennsylvania without permission.

Pennsylvania may have 1,000,000 hunters but a whole lot of them only hunt a few days in rifle season. Just like the first day of trout season where every body is out there to catch 8" stocked trout on niblets corn.

I think you have a higher percentage of dedicated, serious hunters in Ohio.

and they are still going back and forth over crossbows in Pa.

[wallydog1]

Ohios big bucks and balanced deer herd was created with checkstation data.:tsk:

There still going to get the Data.....your saying that it will turn law abiding
hunters into poacher's.....I'm not buying it.....your either a poacher or not. Some how the hunter's are going to get too lazy to check them...You can still check them in at a check station if you want....but the check station will have to be Tied into the system.... It's coming and all the hipe won't change it....everyone needs to do there part and help make it work...you see a violation you need to report it. with out the GW running around to gather Data during the Busy time in the Fall there should be more time to check reports....you poach ...you are going to get Busted.

[jbrown]

There is 2 reasons as of why OH.'s deer are larger,
first is OH. has superior soil in regards to mineral content compared to PA.
(with the exception of the exteme western part of PA. which has mineral rich soil just like OH. does)
2nd is we have over twice as many deer hunters than OH. does and OH. has more deer per square mile on average. Our deer dont get a chance to reach 3 years of age( bucks and doe's) let alone 4 + years of age and if OH. had more hunters per square mile to be similar to PA. and less deer on average per square mile to be similar to PA. OH.'s deer wouldnt have a chance to reach 3 years of age either. Pike

Very good points, Pike. But you didn't mention anywhere in this that checkstations, or lack thereof, are a reason for Ohio's bigger deer. So if checkstations aren't the reason, how would the telecheck system affect herd quality??? If the 2 reasons for little deer in PA are soil and number of hunters (both variables that the DNR cannot really control), how is telecheck negatively affecting the herd or management of the herd?

[Buckmaster]

It all boils down to dollars and cents. I'm sure its a wise business decision for the ODNR. Less overhead, better calculations, and bigger margins.

I'm in favor because its a 1 hour commute from woods to check station and back. I could have it hung, quartered, and in a cooler in an hour.

[Wildman18]

Wallydog It's not the fact that it will turn hunters into poachers. If you shot a deer and its at your house its a doe it's easier not to call it in and not buy a new tag as it is to call it in Especially for the guys that butcher it them selves. That is why the #'s will be down. Us as law biding hunters can understand that, but to the law breakers it's easy.

As for the pissing contest with Pa. Ohio has bigger deer because of the land that Ohio has rolling hills and lots of agr. along with good heard management that the ODNR has layed out. We all have slob hunters in every state so don't kid yourselves!! The deer just grow bigger in ohio and it all started in the early 60's and 70's with the 3 day buck only and now with the extra doe tags that are available.

Southwest Ohio has some of the biggest in the state 1. is the agr. and the rolling hills and 2 is the management practices that have been instilled upon us over the last 10 to 15 years. 3. The age of our deer. A lot of urban ground in that part of the state which in turn allows the deer to reach the optimum age. ( Indian hill anderson westchester loveland springboro ect. ) You will still get a lot of nice deer in other parts of the state Adams co. highland brown hocking morgan cochacton. The key component is the age factor. Genetics are already in Ohio when they were intoduced in the late 50's and 60's.

Your over population of deer is a large factor along with the exes of hunters. Look at Virgina and the # of deer they have and how small they are. That's not the only factor but it has a lot to do with it. Hilly county seem to have a reason also look at west Virgina and the small deer that they have. That is why people from Pa. and WV come to Ohio the big deer!!!!

That is really all I have to say!!!!

[Pike]

Don'f forget, if its not POSTED or a safety zone, you can tresspass and hunt in Pennsylvania without permission.

Pennsylvania may have 1,000,000 hunters but a whole lot of them only hunt a few days in rifle season. Just like the first day of trout season where every body is out there to catch 8" stocked trout on niblets corn.

I think you have a higher percentage of dedicated, serious hunters in Ohio.

and they are still going back and forth over crossbows in Pa.

antiqucycle you have it backwards!! Land in PA. does not have to be posted in any way for a trespasser to be arrested for trespassing.

Also PA. leads the nation in the following catagories,
1. Hunters per capita
2. Hunters per square mile
3. PA. hunters spend more days afield on average than hunters from any other state.
4. PA. hunters spend more days afield on average hunting in other states.
5. PA. hunters spend more $$$ on the sport of hunting on average than hunters from any other state.
So I dont know where you came up with that OH. hunters are more dedicated. Pike

[Pike]

Very good points, Pike. But you didn't mention anywhere in this that checkstations, or lack thereof, are a reason for Ohio's bigger deer. So if checkstations aren't the reason, how would the telecheck system affect herd quality??? If the 2 reasons for little deer in PA are soil and number of hunters (both variables that the DNR cannot really control), how is telecheck negatively affecting the herd or management of the herd?

The reason I didnt mention check stations etc., is because its a factor just not as big as PA. having the 3rd largest army in the world on the monday after thanksgiving or inferior soil in majority of our state compared to OH.

Also antler restrictions might not improve the quality of our bucks
( then again it wasnt meant to do so) but it doesnt hurt the quality of our bucks either.
AR. was implemented to prevent the harvest of up to 90% of our buck population each and every year.

The thing that shocks me about this thread is that not one person knew the reason as of why OH. deer are larger on average than PA. deer. Pike

[jbrown]

The thing that shocks me about this thread is that not one person knew the reason as of why OH. deer are larger on average than PA. deer. Pike

Not sure why that was so shocking... that wasn't even the point of this thread to begin with. And how do you know that you're right about it? There's so many variables in effect that there really isn't any "wrong" answers to it.

What's shocking to me is the fact that you agreed 100% to something that Mountaineer posted. I don't know of anyone on here that has done that yet. :D

[Mountaineer]

Ive worked for Outfiiters out west in Idaho and their number one clients were hunters from PA..They also mentioned they hunt the hardest. I firmly beleive the most hardest working effiecient hunters in the Nation come from PA. Its where I began hunting..Its where I learned how to hunt and Its why Im such an efficent hunter today....The group of Ohio hunters that I became friends with think My buddy and I are absolutely crazy...They cant beleive how hard we hunt and the effort we put forth..with our success ..now..they are changing their style of hunting more like ours.

[OHBOW76]

I see it both ways, I think the telecheck will make it easier for the scrupulous to get away with their crimes, while at the same time I HATE having to drive over hill and dale looking for an opne checkstation, especially during the open season and on Sundays.

[RutCrazed]

I personaly have been hunting kentucky for the past 8 years and have not seen any issue with tele-check. Whatever is going to happen will happen. As far as it hurting the big bucks check this out!
http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_whitetail.asp?area=bgRecords

[mrex]

I personaly have been hunting kentucky for the past 8 years and have not seen any issue with tele-check. Whatever is going to happen will happen. As far as it hurting the big bucks check this out!
http://www.boone-crockett.org/bgRecords/records_whitetail.asp?area=bgRecords

B&C stats do not accurately show Ohio's trophy potential. There are nearly twice as many B&C class bucks entered in the BBBC records than there are in the B&C book.

Regading telecheck ,about 10 years ago, I had a very heatd conversation with then DOW Chief Mike Budzik regarding the idea of a late October, statewide, anterless only muzzleloader season. I remember him telling me, "we won't regulate wildlife based on what a poacher might do."

[ohiosam]

B&C stats do not accurately show Ohio's trophy potential. There are nearly twice as many B&C class bucks entered in the BBBC records than there are in the B&C book.

Mike do believe the percentage of eligible bucks entered in B&C is much different in Ohio then other states? If so why?

[OHBOW76]

I would not want a late October antlerless muzzleloader season, first question WHY??? Deer numbers are already down, so the herd is obviously being managed, second I dont want that kind of pressure prior to bowhuntign the runt, and third, with less does in the woods the bucks would have to travel further to find does therefore increasing stress and having them go into winter in worse physical condition.

[bakerboy]

DOW Chief Mike Budzik regarding the idea of a late October, statewide, anterless only muzzleloader season. I remember him telling me, "we won't regulate wildlife based on what a poacher might do."

Finally, an opening to comment on the point of this thread.

O.K. maybe you can't regulate, but you sure better pick up the law enforcement when you open the door. Telecheck will result in increased buck poaching. It just will; it's too easy to cheat. It's simple logic.
Will law enforcement up their visits to taxidermists ?
Why not have the taxidermists telecheck bucks they receive ?
We have seen the big buck contest cheaters. We all know about the youth season cheaters. We have seen the early muzzleloader season cheaters. Yes, they cheat that too ! It's so easy. Just shoot it anywhere, and check it in.
Ohio takes in millions and millions of dollars because of it's big buck potential. Please don't mess that up. If you want more deer taken, give back the hunting nusance permits.
Everybody here knows I have serious problems with trophy poachers. At least 50 percent of P&Y bucks I see in a given year get jack lighted ( on Rocky Fork near Otway, if your lurking, please help).
I think the trophy fees for poachers was a terrific move, but telecheck is a move in the wrong direction.

[ohiosam]

At least 50 percent of P&Y bucks I see in a given year get jack lighted.

And I thought bow hunters were pure as the driven snow:eek::confused::mischeif:

Anyways if your 50% number is true the checkstation system must be an abysmal failure. How could telecheck be any worse?:coco:

[Gern186]

Finally, an opening to comment on the point of this thread.

O.K. maybe you can't regulate, but you sure better pick up the law enforcement when you open the door. Telecheck will result in increased buck poaching. It just will; it's too easy to cheat. It's simple logic.
Will law enforcement up their visits to taxidermists ?
Why not have the taxidermists telecheck bucks they receive ?
We have seen the big buck contest cheaters. We all know about the youth season cheaters. We have seen the early muzzleloader season cheaters. Yes, they cheat that too ! It's so easy. Just shoot it anywhere, and check it in.
Ohio takes in millions and millions of dollars because of it's big buck potential. Please don't mess that up. If you want more deer taken, give back the hunting nusance permits.
Everybody here knows I have serious problems with trophy poachers. At least 50 percent of P&Y bucks I see in a given year get jack lighted ( on Rocky Fork near Otway, if your lurking, please help).
I think the trophy fees for poachers was a terrific move, but telecheck is a move in the wrong direction.

I hope this is an exaggeration to prove a point.

[jackalope]

I hope this is an exaggeration to prove a point.

50% of 2 is 1 :D

[bakerboy]

I hope this is an exaggeration to prove a point.

Sorry, no exaggeration. Poaching is a way of life in Scioto county. We are on our third wildlife officer in last two years. We need at least four. Rural people down here do whatever they want.

[mrex]

Mike do believe the percentage of eligible bucks entered in B&C is much different in Ohio then other states? If so why?

I do. The other "big buck" states don't have a state record keeping organization with the history or notoriety of the BBBC.

[Buckmaster]

Regading telecheck ,about 10 years ago, I had a very heatd conversation with then DOW Chief Mike Budzik regarding the idea of a late October, statewide, anterless only muzzleloader season. I remember him telling me, "we won't regulate wildlife based on what a poacher might do."

I had the same idea as well about 10 years ago, schedule a weekend 3 day (Sat & Sun) statewide muzzleloader season Halloween weekend. Oh what a joy, that would bring. :bouncy: That would make Ohio an elite state. :D

[OHBOW76]

Telecheck and our current system have something in common and that is the issuance of a number for your deer, right now its in the form of a metal tag, soon it will be in the form of an automated number for you to write down.

The problem with this system is the complete lack of human interaction and real hands and eyes on your deer. Think about it right now you actually have to take your buck someplace and someone documents it. In the future you could shoot a buck call in say its a doe and have a legal tag for the meat, once the antlers are stowed away whos to know if the meat in the freezer came from a buck or a doe. It would be too easy to pass off bucks for does with telecheck.

However, I get a bit sick of running all over hill and dale trying to find an open check station at times.

[traphunter]

Telecheck and our current system have something in common and that is the issuance of a number for your deer, right now its in the form of a metal tag, soon it will be in the form of an automated number for you to write down.

The problem with this system is the complete lack of human interaction and real hands and eyes on your deer. Think about it right now you actually have to take your buck someplace and someone documents it. In the future you could shoot a buck call in say its a doe and have a legal tag for the meat, once the antlers are stowed away whos to know if the meat in the freezer came from a buck or a doe. It would be too easy to pass off bucks for does with telecheck.

However, I get a bit sick of running all over hill and dale trying to find an open check station at times.


This seems to be the thought of most of the people on the board, including mine.

So I guess the question is, which is more important?

More accurate harvest records and having to drive to a check station?

OR

Less accurate records and the ease of using a phone to check in your deer?

This is basically what it boils down to. I know which one I would choose.

[uglykat26]

im against the telecheck for reason mentioned before , and also i would be missing seeing everyone else's succes of shooting a deer , i get a thrill out of goingto the check station and seeing a young kid with theyre first deer and listening to them tell the story 100 times in 5 minutes to whoever will listen , and missing seeing the smile on theyre face when older hunters pat that kid on the back and say good job , i feel its gonna make us loose more young hunters that need that praise to keep the fever going in these young kids

[hntwhitetail]

Any new wisdom??

[redcloud102]

Any new wisdom??

For some it will be nice to use but, for many more people it is going to suck :D. Just my .02 on the matter.

[benehunter]

Telecheck will make my life better ;).
Hate to look for an open check station on a Sunday night.

[redcloud102]

It will be interesting to see how many people get busted for calling in a doe when they have a 10 point buck give or take a few points hanging in the garage or barn. Going to be a harder job for the WO's IMO. I guess we will find out soon enough how it will or won't work.

[Full Rut]

I really can't see the difference. If someone plans on shooting two bucks in a year now... they would'nt take the first deer to a check station. With telecheck ...they would'nt make a phone call on the first deer. Either way they will save their tag for the next buck.

[hntwhitetail]

I'm not a fan of it. I think we need to police ourselves better... and if you know someone is taking more than 1 buck.. or shooting that 1 buck illegally... to call the tip line.

[redcloud102]

I'm not a fan of it. I think we need to police ourselves better... and if you know someone is taking more than 1 buck.. or shooting that 1 buck illegally... to call the tip line.

Been there done that already this year :D. I'm doing my part against the battle lol.