Muzzleloader suggestions?

[Star1pup]

I'v been thinking about one of those CVA 209 muzzleloaders that look like a T/C Encore. Don't want to spend the extra bucks for a gun like the T/C that will get very limited use. Anyone have any experience with them?

[Caribou Dreamer2]

Is that the cva optima i think there was a thread on that rifle earlier do a search for that topic i hope that helps.
Personal i have seen that rifle and it looks pretty nice i have never shot it but if i was looking into a new muzzle i would not look over that one.

[joe]

I currently own one, I really like the gun. Its shoots excellent. I shoot groups of 2" at 125 yards. I think it well worth the money.

[Caribou Dreamer2]

I find this interesting.

The CVA Optima Pro 29" blued / camo synthetic .45 caliber weighs 9-1/2 pounds and is surprisingly well balanced. This break open hammer gun has a trigger that breaks at about 4.5 lbs. on the Lyman electronic trigger gauge, with very little take-up and no grit. The already good balance turned out to be even better after adding Warne QR rings and a Nikon Monarch 2 x 7 x 32 scope. A word to the wise, you may want to use the Warne "high" rings if you are mounting a larger scope, as the 32mm tube / medium Warne Ring combination offers enough clearance for Weaver "Polar" caps, but not much more.

The Optima exhibits no blowback at all. Cleaning is a cinch, as you back out the breech plug with the supplied tool (or a common socket set), stick the muzzle in a pail of water, and you are done in a few minutes.

The comparison made by CVA's ad-copy is versus one of my very favorite in-lines, the Thompson /Center Encore. Surprisingly, the Optima's synthetic camo stock set is far superior to the T/C camo "instant collapse" stock, which was quickly replaced by a solid T/C walnut set. Additionally, the ramrod on the CVA is big step up from the Encore's painful factory rod. However, this gun is in no way related to the Encore. The action is virtually identical to the Harrington and Richardson "Topper" shotgun, and is better described as an H&R "Huntsman" with an Encore style stock. Take the forearm off, and the barrel falls to the ground. Even the telescoping ramrod is "borrowed" from the H &R Huntsman.

Aesthetically, the Optima's cheap looking roll engraving is a small distraction, as is the unappealing (but perfectly functional) trigger guard mounted barrel release (the Topper / Huntsman is an upper tang lever barrel break). I was impressed with the solid synthetic stock of the Winchester X-150, and am equally impressed with the job they have done with the Optima.

The best 100-yard accuracy was in the 3-1/2" range through several shooting sessions, with better groups from the 225-grain Powerbelts and 100 grains of Triple Seven than most anything else. Not awe-inspiring compared the much more accurate Austin & Halleck, Knight Elite, and White rifles tested recently, but adequate hunting accuracy nevertheless. The Optima is also priced far less than these other rifles, starting at well under $200 and has a different intended audience.

I'll offer a two-part theory for this wonderfully adequate accuracy, aside from the normal loose nut behind the trigger dogma, and the fact that this is only one gun of thousands already sold. With the exception of the White Elite .451, most .45s I have shot are much more finicky in specific loadings than .50 caliber counterparts. To cite one gun, the Austin & Halleck 420 .50 calibers seemingly shoot 1" groups with whatever you care to stuff down the barrel. I've not shot one .45 caliber gun yet that gives outstanding repeatable with a huge variety of projectile / powder combinations. If nothing else, call it a mildly suspicious trend.

Secondly, few in-lines I have shot give superb accuracy without substantial barrel to stock rigidity. There are different ways individual rifles approach this. The White 98 Elite Hunter has this due to its dual recoil lug system, the Austin & Halleck achieves this via its heavy half-octagonal barrel section, and the Knight Elite finally makes it with its new elongated, forked recoil lug that floats the barrel while offering a bigger footprint. The Thompson Encore gets there due to its sheer over-built action, as one might expect in a muzzleloading firearm that accepts a .375 H & H cartridge barrel.

While ad-copy and anecdotal musings might regale you of the "one ratty hole," "three holes touching," and other colloquial terms, the reality is that no manufacturer (except Weatherby) backs their claims with a written guarantee if your mainstream rifle shoots 3-1/2" on its best day. This should not stun anyone. Ruger, for example, has an accuracy standard of their popular Mini-14 and Mini-30 semi-auto rifles of 2" at 50 yards.

Ian McMurchy, in one of the most extensive independent series of scoped inline blackpowder rifle testing in print, awarded an "A" accuracy level to any rifle that could muster a sub 3" group. Mr. McMurchy's "B" rating was for any rifle that could manage a group from 3-6 inches at 100 yards. McMurchy and his test-shooters discovered their fair share of "B" accuracy grade rifles. That should tell us something.

The H&R Huntsman (upon which the Optima is based) has been available for some time now, but has suffered from sheer ugliness, reputation spillover from the old "Topper," and the fact that it is a form 4473 firearm, precluding its marketability in the same fashion as a black powder arm. The "new" H&R 1871, has yet to find its niche. Though in the same price category as the CVA, its lack of visibility in the market place and anemic one year warranty apparently have held it back from universal acceptance.

I have no trouble saying that this is the most user-friendly gun CVA has produced to date, and the combination of bargain pricing, easy maintenance, decent trigger, no blowback, and one of the best synthetic break action stock sets I have seen gives this gun great appeal to the price-conscious buyer. It comes with CVA's limited lifetime warranty. With the formidable sales skills of BPI, the only problem CVA is going to have with this gun is keeping them in stock. Not a terribly bad problem for them to have!http://www.cva.com/images/optimapro.jpg

[Star1pup]

Wow! What a thorough review. It really helps. I wasn't thinking about the Pro, but the less expensive Optima with the 26" barrel. I wonder what I'm sacrificing if I go less expensive?

Basically, I had about $200 in my pocket to add a muzzleloader to my guns so I could hunt during Ohio's 4 day muzzleloader season. Maybe I should save a little more and go with the Pro Optima next year. Our season comes in Dec. 27 so I don't have a lot of time.

One store near here has the less expensive Optima with a scope, etc. for $288.

Do you know anything bad about the Huntsman other than the looks and the fact that it requires a BATF registration?

[Caribou Dreamer2]

Sorry don't know anything about the huntsman,but here is a qiuck price check for the pro's



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1.)PR3002N PR3003N $319.95 Mossy Oak New Break-Up Camo/Nickel Barrel.

2.)PR3002 PR3003 $299.95 Mossy Oak New Break-Up Camo/Blue Barrel.
3.) PR3000N PR3001N $279.95 Black FiberGrip/Nickel Barrel.
4.) PR3000 P32001 $259.95 Black FiberGrip/Blue Barrel .

These really are not bad prices for the high end pro model.If it was me i would save alittle more and but the better muzzle.Good luck with your new purchase.

[Thunderflight]

I was thinking about buying the pro 209.

I have a friend who has the 209 and he likes it. He's been having trouble getting it to shoot consitantly, but he doesn't have the barrel seasoned yet. Once it's seasoned it should be good to go.

My friend also has a friend who has the pro 209. The pro209 can shoot up to 150 grains of pyrodex and much more accurate at longer ranges.

I decided (and this is just for me, nothing against anyone else) to buy a flint lock. I kinda like the novelty and traditional thingy about it.

I'm going to order a Cabelas Kentucky flint lock around the end of the month. I'd order it today, but I bought a persian rug in UAE and I don't have any money on my hunting VISA. :(

Thunderflight

[Caribou Dreamer2]

tTunder sounds good i remember when i took my first deer with a muzzle oader it was a :borrowd" .45 cal. kentucky long rifle.I'm not sure if i would of gave up a muzzle for a rug but i guess you got to do what you got to do sometime.

Tell your friend i hade the same problem with the consitantly thing i was shooting three 50 grain pellets(150 grains)240 grain t/c bullet with sabot and could not hit the same spot twice, back the powder back down to 2 -50 grain pellets (100 grains) and presto right on the mark just thought i would throw that out at you.

BYye the way hows the sea's looking any better

[Thunderflight]

CD2,

So have we been hitting the firewater this afternoon???:) Your spelling is telling on you...:) :)

My wife is going to kill me for getting the rug, but when ever I visit a foreign country I always try to buy a souviener (sp?) that is made in that area of the world.

The Middle East is pretty well known for Persian rugs and you can get them cheaper than in the USA. Silk on silk rugs made in Iran and Afganistan are the high $$$ rugs ($1,000 to $15,000). Mine is a cheap silk on wool ($200).

I've been to UAE seven times and this was the first time I've ever bought a rug (or even had the money to get one). We'll probably be back, but with the war and all you just never know what's going to happen and we could not come back too.

Now, when I hit the Med I'll be picking up some pottery and vases for Mom, the wife and even my mother in law. Last cruise I bought some really nice merschem (sp?) pipes in Turkey. The wife was really pissed about that cause all I used the for is display. ;)

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we go to Italy too. ;) If so I'm going to take a trip to Rome for a few days. That would be AWESOME. Only time will tell though.

I'll have the money for the gun at the end of the month. I increased my covert hunting fund money. So all I have to do is transfer it to my VISA and I'm good to go.:)

TF

[MrFurious]

I could have sworn I posted something here mentioning the H&R Huntsman... :confused:

Anyways, for the money I don't think you could go wrong with the Huntsman. The only possible drawback I could maybe see would be the use of the primer holders, but Knight is using the same principal on their Disc Extreme's.

As for the BATF registration, more and more in-lines are having this requirement placed upon them. I"m not sure about the Remington or Ruger ML's and their requirements for registration, but it wouldn't suprize me if it was required since they are based on a centerfire rifle action that could possibly have the barrel and bolt replaced to make it one. I know thats the reason my Savage required the registration.

[Star1pup]

Okay, I bought the Huntsman this morning. I am new to muzzleloaders so any advice you guys can send my way that will work with this gun will be appreciated.

[kyhuntsman]

I own a T/C Encore 209 X 50 Magnum and love it! Yes, it was more expensive than the others, but I can get sub 1" groupings out of it at 75 yards using iron sights.

I also like it for I can buy optional barrels and have all of my guns have the same feel to it. I currently have a 30.06 barrel that I use for deer season in Ky and I will probably get a shotgun barrel for it to use for turkey season.

For me, it was money well spent!
Matt

[Bertke Mt. Cur]

I bought a new 26" barrel Optima @ Sportsmans Den in Shelby friday night for $169.99, plus came with a free pack of power belt bullets. They had a great sale going on.
I haven't shot it yet, but I have put on some bases and see thru rings, and don't know if I should mount my Nikon Buckmaster or my Simmons 8-pt on it. I'll get one of the two on by this weekend and give it a try.

[Thunderflight]

Well you all missed the "nice" (notice the sarcasim) email I got from the wife when I thanked her for getting me that flint lock.

Basically it said a few things about how I need to buy a tool box instead of a new gun so I can organize my tools in the garage. Hey, first off I know where every tool is. Besides I don't own too many tools. That's what neighbors are for....:D

Anyway, I'm going to hold off and get a more expensive gun now...;)

That'll teach her.....:eek:

Thunderflight

[Mathewq2]

http://www.tcarms.com/mlrifles/enc209x50/enc209sstcosm.jpg

this is the ML i have but in a walnut stock

i love my encore

[Bertke Mt. Cur]

I give high marks to my Optima - It took six shots to sight in to one ragged hole at 80yds, killed a doe with one shot, and now it is retired till next year with a total of seven shots through it. Best $170 I ever spent.