I'm calling out Scent Lok

[TRMichels]

This just went up on my website.

3/27/2009
I just heard that, on www.Justia.com, (http://www.justia.com,/) one of the people who filed a law suit against Scent Lok, stated in their deposition, that they filed suit because they had been to this (my Scent Lok / Activated Carbon Science, www.TRMichels.com/ActivatedCarbonScience.html (http://www.trmichels.com/ActivatedCarbonScience.html)) web page, and realized that they'd been ripped of - by Scent Lok. To find lawsuits against Scent Lok - type in the letters ALS.

Anyone with a lick of sense, who actually reads what is on this page- and on page 2 - knows that activated carbon cannot work the way the manufacturers of hunting clothing say it can.

Scent Lok Corporate Head's Deposition - Sealed
At the same time I heard that ALS's corporate heads have also been deposed, but that their testimony has been sealed. What's with that … I thought we had a little legal precedent here in the USA called the "Freedom of Information Act". Why is it that the depositions of those suing Scent Lok are made public, but Scent Lok's lawyers have the depositions of the Scent Lok corporate heads sealed? Is that fair - to the hunting public?

Hey Scent Lok
Here is my offer to you. You have your deposition unsealed, and e-mailed to me, and I'll post it right here - so the hunting public (those people who have paid for your products - and who pay your salary) - can get both sides of the story - and the truth.

Anyone want to bet on whether they take me up on this offer of not?

(3/27/2009 1:30 PM - I just sent this in an e-mail to Scent Lok [at info@scentlok.com] , and to about 30 of the largest hunting magazine editors out there. So, neither Scent Lok nor those publications can say they know nothing about this.)

God bless,

T.R.

[coonskinner]

people will say anything to sell their product...it can dillute it but not illiminate it completely...and a deer can detect the slightest bit of human scent...if any product says it can completely keep you from getting scented...red flags should be going up...:biggrin:

[redcloud102]

They will not even bother with your e-mail and just trash it. If they didn't want to have it in open court with unsealed records they surely won't give you the info. They will say that the reason it was sealed was to keep the company's research and development away from competing manufacturers. Without DEEP pockets and years of fighting it in court you will never find out what is in those records.

With any product the consumer has to do their homework and it is a buyer's beware market. You can't just trust what the company says especially in a market that deals with hunting. They wouldn't be able to sell most of whats out there if they told you the whole truth. They just call it selective marketing. You out of anybody els on this site should be aware of the fact companies pay researchers to conduct studies and the company will only publish the supporting facts of their product. Very few consumers will take the time to research the product before buying it ( myself included ).

Over the many years hunting I have seen many products put out there. I pick and choose very carefully as many do. You do have some people that will just buy everything under the sun because it's NEW it has to be good concept. Those are the people companies pray and bank on. Like I said before it is a buyers beware market and sometimes the product is good and you get what you pay for and more time then not you don't.

[clarkpba]

I'm just curious if anyone has looked at the proper way to use scent lock clothing? You have to use the same steps as you do with non scent lock clothing. you have to use eliminator wash. spray it with scent killer when you get to the field. and store in scent free containers. So in doing research you realize that you just spent all that extra money for nothing really but a false sense of security.

If you really want to do yourself a favor and save money in the long run buy yourself some goretex clothing and a bottle of scent killer and walla you have scent-loc clothes........:idea:.

[TRMichels]

Clark,,

If you read my web pages , you will see that I pointed thout out.

They used to have the "Steps to Scent Elimination" on their website - if you did what they said, you would not need - Scent Lok.
What a scam.

God bless,

T.R.

[bmiller]

why waste the money on it if you're gonna take the precautions anyway?
I say it's ludacris :whistle:

[sethjamto]

I don't believe in that crap at all. I've had to put a smoke out just to be able to draw my bow back and shoot a deer before!

[Mountaineer]

I never fall for these gimmicks.becaue i know these product inventors will do anyhting and say anything to get rich....Its all about the Money....Regardless if it works or not..The inventor of scentlok is sitting somewhere on the beach earning 6.25%...laughing at all the silly hunters. Saying.."I Love America"

[Thunderflight]

http://www.fritolay.com/assets/images/fpo/CHEETOS_Crunchy_Cheddar_Jalapeno_Flavored_Snacks.g if

[coonskinner]

They will not even bother with your e-mail and just trash it. If they didn't want to have it in open court with unsealed records they surely won't give you the info. They will say that the reason it was sealed was to keep the company's research and development away from competing manufacturers. Without DEEP pockets and years of fighting it in court you will never find out what is in those records.

With any product the consumer has to do their homework and it is a buyer's beware market. You can't just trust what the company says especially in a market that deals with hunting. They wouldn't be able to sell most of whats out there if they told you the whole truth. They just call it selective marketing. You out of anybody els on this site should be aware of the fact companies pay researchers to conduct studies and the company will only publish the supporting facts of their product. Very few consumers will take the time to research the product before buying it ( myself included ).

Over the many years hunting I have seen many products put out there. I pick and choose very carefully as many do. You do have some people that will just buy everything under the sun because it's NEW it has to be good concept. Those are the people companies pray and bank on. Like I said before it is a buyers beware market and sometimes the product is good and you get what you pay for and more time then not you don't.

very good post...:biggrin:

[buckslayer98]

What do you think about the scent smoker TR? Just curious. Thanks

[buckster]

If you dont like it dont buy it,just dont keep beatin a dead horse.
Hang it up TR

[JD Boyd]

What do you guys think of the Drury brothers endorsing scent blocker all the time? Do you think they really believe the stuff works or laughing all the way to the bank?

[redcloud102]

What do you guys think of the Drury brothers endorsing scent blocker all the time? Do you think they really believe the stuff works or laughing all the way to the bank?

Oh you mean the old Water in a bottle trick :) Gotta love it. Just amazes me what some of these products say they can do.

All you really need is a box of baking soda. Just look at the smells it takes out of that old fridge :)

[redcloud102]

If you can't find any of this at your local hunting supply store. Call me. I will sell it for the low low price of $29.99 :woohoo1:

http://consumerist.com/assets/images/consumerist/2008/08/armandhammer2.jpg

I apologize for that. I'm just in one of those moods today :)

[Thunderflight]

Maybe the people who haven't had positive results w/scent lok are just naturally stinky people. Maybe they've got some weird gene that just make them stink more than others regardless of how much they shower.

http://sysadminco.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/smelly.jpg

[Nimrod]

Secret hunting tip: Hunt downwind of your huntin buddy! It has worked for me before as the deer wind him and come to me!!! :D

....I hope he doesn't read this.:whistle:

[Jake/ButlerCounty]

Did any of you guys see the carbon scent elimination co. at the Deer expo this year called Natural Predator I bought $20 worth of their stuff Anybody had luck w/ this stuff?

[bioactive]

Mr. Michels has been on this campaign for a long time. His reasoning and science are very faulty. I am a Ph.D. biochemist and have written a rebuttal to one of his articles. It is posted here:

Debunking the Debunkers (http://app4.websitetonight.com/projects/6/6/8/5/668599/Debunking_Debunkers.html?t=633747737133692019)

[XX78]

Mr. Michels has been on this campaign for a long time. His reasoning and science are very faulty. I am a Ph.D. biochemist and have written a rebuttal to one of his articles. It is posted here:

Debunking the Debunkers (http://app4.websitetonight.com/projects/6/6/8/5/668599/Debunking_Debunkers.html?t=633747737133692019)

Bioactive,

We need someone like you around here. I don't have the time or energy to fully analyze what your rebuttal, but some of what you said came back to me as I read your post. As a Ph.D. I am sure you have been published in some white paper or journal form. We all know that a lot of data presented is done so in a very careful manner. If not done so, it can often be presented in a contradicting way, but I digress. Along with the prestige in being published comes transparency. Do you have any financial conflicts of interest that we need know about. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the entire response sounds as if you are on someone's payroll. And again I apologize if I am wrong.

What is your opinion of this thread?

http://www.ohiosportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22943

[bioactive]

Bioactive,

We need someone like you around here. I don't have the time or energy to fully analyze what your rebuttal, but some of what you said came back to me as I read your post. As a Ph.D. I am sure you have been published in some white paper or journal form. We all know that a lot of data presented is done so in a very careful manner. If not done so, it can often be presented in a contradicting way, but I digress. Along with the prestige in being published comes transparency. Do you have any financial conflicts of interest that we need know about. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the entire response sounds as if you are on someone's payroll. And again I apologize if I am wrong.

What is your opinion of this thread?

http://www.ohiosportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22943


In fact, I do sell activated carbon in a powdered form. I have a little, tiny business in Michigan trying to provide scent control for hunters at a reasonable cost. It is viewed by some as a competitive product with Scent-Lok. I don't view it that way. I use Scent-Lok and believe in it. Why? Because I understand the science behind it.

By the way, I was stating these opinions BEFORE I got into this business. Here is proof from a thread on the Michigan Sportsmen Forum, where I was making the same spirited arguments before I ever got into the business of scent control (in fact, these MSF discussions were what stimulated me to start a business, because I realized there were a lot of hunters that simply couldn't afford the garments).

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1791240&highlight=scent#post1791240

I would not be speaking up about this except I think that TR is doing a terrible disservice to hunters. He simply does not understand the science, yet uses scientific terminology as if he does know what he is talking about. If I were not a scientist, I might believe what he is saying because he has a certain amount of fame in the business.

I gain nothing personally from making arguments for Scent-Lok clothing. But if you believe him, and can afford Scent-Lok, and choose to not use it because of what he says, then the quality of your hunting will suffer. That's the only reason I am responding to him.

[bioactive]

Bioactive,

We need someone like you around here. I don't have the time or energy to fully analyze what your rebuttal, but some of what you said came back to me as I read your post. As a Ph.D. I am sure you have been published in some white paper or journal form. We all know that a lot of data presented is done so in a very careful manner. If not done so, it can often be presented in a contradicting way, but I digress. Along with the prestige in being published comes transparency. Do you have any financial conflicts of interest that we need know about. Forgive me if I am wrong, but the entire response sounds as if you are on someone's payroll. And again I apologize if I am wrong.

What is your opinion of this thread?

http://www.ohiosportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22943

Regarding my opinion on the thread:

I have not tried the smoker product. I do believe that anything that reduces bacteria is valuable, but scent-free detergents can do that quite effectively. There are two main drawbacks to smoke as a cover scent (setting the antibacterial element aside).

First is that it does not take away the other existing scents. If I were to wear smoked clothing, and I walk up to my dog in the dark, he will still be able to smell the me that underlies the smoke, and know that in addition to the smoke smell his master is there. Likewise, you can put all the cover scents on you want. A mature deer will smell the human underneath as surely as you can taste the jelly inside your Bismarck.

Second, a mature deer shies away from anything, and I mean anything that is not in its normal place. So it does not make sense to me to cover yourself with a scent that is not normally found in your region and then go sit in the woods and expect a mature deer to come near you. He has no need to. Is he scared by it? Maybe not. But he got where he is by never taking chances. Why on earth would he move closer and closer to an unusual scent that does not represent a girl.

From a scientific perspective, I could have made all kinds of rationalizations about how to use my biochemical knowledge to get into the deer scent business. I chose scent REDUCTION, because it makes the most sense to me.

Here is an anecdote I got from a guy up at the Deer and Turkey Spectacular in Lansing a few weeks ago.

He hunted regularly in an area with pastured cows. Whenever he went hunting, he had great success by rubbing his boots into the cow dung before he went out. One day, he went to a different area where there were no cows. He was sitting in his stand and watched a mature doe go stiff-legged when she hit his trail. She turned and left the scene.

Moral of the story: Cover scents are useful, especially on foot wear, but only if they are local scents that the deer expect to be there. Misplaced scents send mature deer in the opposite direction.

Moral number two: He who $h1ts in road on way to town will meet flies on his return.

[mrex]

Regarding my opinion on the thread:

I have not tried the smoker product. I do believe that anything that reduces bacteria is valuable, but scent-free detergents can do that quite effectively. There are two main drawbacks to smoke as a cover scent (setting the antibacterial element aside).

You need to give it a try before you can base an honest opinion. I was skeptical of it's effectiveness before I tried it.

IMO, setting the antibacterial element aside is ignoring the mechanism that makes hardwood smoke effective.

I'm on the pro staff of the largest scent / lure manufacturing company in the world. I have access to gallons of various cover scents at no cost and I don't use any of them. I liken cover scents to perfume on *****, it's just sweet smelling *****. Smoke is not a lure or a cover scent.


First is that it does not take away the other existing scents. If I were to wear smoked clothing, and I walk up to my dog in the dark, he will still be able to smell the me that underlies the smoke, and know that in addition to the smoke smell his master is there. Likewise, you can put all the cover scents on you want. A mature deer will smell the human underneath as surely as you can taste the jelly inside your Bismarck.

Don't you use this same analogy in your pro scent-lok link? "So since it does not make you completely invisible, it must be ineffective, using the same logic as the author, right?"

Second, a mature deer shies away from anything, and I mean anything that is not in its normal place. So it does not make sense to me to cover yourself with a scent that is not normally found in your region and then go sit in the woods and expect a mature deer to come near you. He has no need to. Is he scared by it? Maybe not. But he got where he is by never taking chances. Why on earth would he move closer and closer to an unusual scent that does not represent a girl.

I disagree with this. A mature deer shies away from predators or anything that wants to eat him. I've personally watched deer exhibit curiosity towards foreign odors like tonquin.

Here is an anecdote I got from a guy up at the Deer and Turkey Spectacular in Lansing a few weeks ago.

He hunted regularly in an area with pastured cows. Whenever he went hunting, he had great success by rubbing his boots into the cow dung before he went out. One day, he went to a different area where there were no cows. He was sitting in his stand and watched a mature doe go stiff-legged when she hit his trail. She turned and left the scene.

Have you ever witnessed a tracking dog in action? They don't follow the scent deposited from the soles of our boots. They track a few feet / yards down wind of your path following the scent deposited on the ground and vegetation. Could that doe have been smelling the "meat eater" scent emitted from your buddies breath?

I believe in the effectiveness of activated carbon and smoke. I have used them extensively and feel both can be valuable tools in the quest to get close to whitetail deer, however, coating myself in hardwood smoke is considerably easier and more convenient than the process I used to employ when relying on carbon lined clothing.

[bioactive]

IMO, setting the antibacterial element aside is ignoring the mechanism that makes hardwood smoke effective. I absolutely agree that smoking is a good means of killing bacteria. I can understand the importance of removing microbes but would question the cost-effectiveness of using a smoker vs. using detergents. I do have a lot of experience with detergents (at a research level) and feel that using an expensive approach for antimicrobial activity is probably unnecessary. Just my opinion. If you believe, as I do, that detergents and smoking will deliver virtually the same value in killing bacteria, then you are left with cover scent as being the best reason to use it, since detergents are the far cheaper alternative.

BUT, maybe the smoker does some decontamination that has not been mentioned yet in the thread. Here is what I think the main problem is with the methods used by most hunters to clean their clothing. People take their hunting clothes and put them in their wife's washer, which has been used all year long with scented detergents and fabric softeners. I challenge each of you to look on the outside of the tub with the holes in it on your washer, mine has about a 1/8th inch thick scum of blue fabric softener on the outside. You usually can't see it, but if you reach your finger back there you can pull out a plum:). Lean in and smell it. This is why I own my own washer and dryer which are kept in my barn. My clothes never see my family washer or dryer. So, most people, even being super careful, are actually contaminating their clothing with scented materials in the washer. So, my guess is that the reason the smoke might work, is that it is decontaminating the materials that came with the clothing from the washer and dryer. It makes sense that the compounds in the smoke might chemically react with some of the perfume molecules from the detergents and fabric softeners. This business of using the family washer is the number one scent error made by hunters in my opinion. I do know hunters who use their family washer, but they disassemble it and clean it first, then reassemble and do all their clothes for the hunting year. Maybe the smoke is an alternative for this.

I'm on the pro staff of the largest scent / lure manufacturing company in the world. I have access to gallons of various cover scents at no cost and I don't use any of them. I liken cover scents to perfume on *****, it's just sweet smelling *****. Smoke is not a lure or a cover scent.We are certainly in agreement on this point. Although many hunters do believe in cover scents and they believe that smoke is agood cover scent.

Don't you use this same analogy in your pro scent-lok link? "So since it does not make you completely invisible, it must be ineffective, using the same logic as the author, right?"My statements seem contradictory because I was setting aside a discussion of scent reduction and considering the smoke to be a cover scent. In which case I draw the same conclusions you do about putting perfume on ****. So, if the smoker is not reducing the number os scent molecules released, and is only acting as cover scent, then the analogy holds water. It is important to consider this. The activated carbon in carbon clothing is not present to prevent odor from coming from the clothing. It is to capture odor coming off your body. Proper use of detergents and protection from contamination after cleaning is sufficient to remove odors from the clothing. It is odors from your body that carbon garments are meant to reduce. Since the smoker doesn't reduce release of molecules from your body, or trap them as they are coming off, then you are releasing just as much scent as you were before. (All this setting aside the argument that it reduces scent, just for the sake of discussion). And again, you can't put perfume on ****.

By the way, the arguments that some have made above that you are adding carbon to the garments makes no sense. Activated carbon is the stuff that is left behind after burning, not what is evolved. There are many carbon molecules released in smoke, but most are not pure carbon, they are carbon compounds that often have strong odors.

I disagree with this. A mature deer shies away from predators or anything that wants to eat him. I've personally watched deer exhibit curiosity towards foreign odors like tonquin. I think we have all observed curiosity among deer. I am not an expert hunter, but going by what experts who hunt free range deer in my home state of Michigan say, mature deer under pressured conditions will tolerate nothing new in their environment. As Uncle Ted once said, "deer in Michigan are born looking up and walking backwards."

Have you ever witnessed a tracking dog in action? They don't follow the scent deposited from the soles of our boots. They track a few feet / yards down wind of your path following the scent deposited on the ground and vegetation. Could that doe have been smelling the "meat eater" scent emitted from your buddies breath?Yes, it could have, except for the fact that it stuck it's nose down into his trail first. And this guy was a very experienced hunter who had been using his same scent control techniques in a home area without getting busted in that manner. Anyway, its just anecdotal.

I believe in the effectiveness of activated carbon and smoke. I have used them extensively and feel both can be valuable tools in the quest to get close to whitetail deer, however, coating myself in hardwood smoke is considerably easier and more convenient than the process I used to employ when relying on carbon lined clothing.I can't argue with success:). If it works for you, I'm happy. Someone asked for my scientific opinion and I expressed it.

[jackalope]

the US Army's Mission Oriented Protective Posture (MOPP) Chem Bio garment; which are effectively a heavily carbon lined garments that come in a protective vacuum sealed bag that is not to be exposed to air except at the moment of attack.

Mr. Ph.D. biochemist please explain to me why..

The garment which contains a tremendously greater amount of Activated carbon in it's lining than is available to the hunting public is only considered to be effective for a period of 22 days since exposure to air. And obviously even shorter if exposed to chem / bio agents..

Also, why are opened MOPP garments reduced to training aids once exposed to air for a period of 22+ days, and not reactivated and reused in a company dryer.

I can tell you however It is the US Armed Forces opinion that carbon lined clothing is probably highly ineffective after exposure to clean air for a period of 22 days.. Carbon Activated clothing commonly sold to the hunting community has far less carbon and has been exposed for greater period than 22 days before it even hits the shelves. It is also the US Armed Forces opinion that once there garment have been used for 22 days they are rendered worthless except as training aids and is not reused recycled reactivated or any other such practices in actual containment scenarios.

[Master Baiter]

""I'm on the pro staff of the largest scent / lure manufacturing company in the world. I have access to gallons of various cover scents at no cost and I don't use any of them. I liken cover scents to perfume on *****, it's just sweet smelling *****. Smoke is not a lure or a cover scent.""

Then why are you on their pro staff if you don't believe in using them?

[jackalope]

Then why are you on their pro staff if you don't believe in using them?


That’s not quite what he meant.. They key word here was cover

He was talking about putting those cover scents on a turd. It will still smell like a turd. just with cover scent.. He did not say he doesn't believe in using them in the right scenario like a clean person who has undergone scent elimination practices.. There is a giant difference between using a cover scent on a ditch digger who just got off work and that same ditch digger that took a scent free shower, scent freed his clothes, then used a cover scent...

Scent lock says "forget the wind just hunt" implying that their garment is all you need.. I.E you can cover a turd in these garments and not smell like a turd anymore.

[coonskinner]

none will completely stop your scent...theres simply nothing made that can do that...the only people that have all this scientific evidence aren't telling everything...just the good points that will sell this stuff...:D

[bioactive]

the US Army's Mission Oriented Protective Posture (MOPP) Chem Bio garment; which are effectively a heavily carbon lined garments that come in a protective vacuum sealed bag that is not to be exposed to air except at the moment of attack.

Mr. Ph.D. biochemist please explain to me why..

The garment which contains a tremendously greater amount of Activated carbon in it's lining than is available to the hunting public is only considered to be effective for a period of 22 days since exposure to air. And obviously even shorter if exposed to chem / bio agents..

Also, why are opened MOPP garments reduced to training aids once exposed to air for a period of 22+ days, and not reactivated and reused in a company dryer.

I can tell you however It is the US Armed Forces opinion that carbon lined clothing is probably highly ineffective after exposure to clean air for a period of 22 days.. Carbon Activated clothing commonly sold to the hunting community has far less carbon and has been exposed for greater period than 22 days before it even hits the shelves. It is also the US Armed Forces opinion that once there garment have been used for 22 days they are rendered worthless except as training aids and is not reused recycled reactivated or any other such practices in actual containment scenarios.

First let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Will a standard pickup truck meet the testing criteria that a U.S. Army tank needs to meet? No? Does that mean that the pickup truck is not useful for hauling your deer home?

2. Will a 4th of July fireworks rocket meet the standards of a U.S. military ballistic missile? No? Does that mean the 4th of July rocket is not useful for entertaining people?

A military activated carbon suit is meant to keep a soldier from coming into contact with significant concentrations of molecules that will kill them if the suit is not effective. It needs thousands of times more carbon than a hunting suit does to be effective for the need it is designed for. And that carbon has to be kept in completely pristine condition until the moment of use.

In contrast, a hunting activated carbon suit is meant to slow down the evolution of minute amounts of odor from the human body in order to have a deer not be able to smell him effectively. It is to a military suit as your deer rifle is to a 50 caliber machine gun.

If the soldiers suit fails he dies.

If the hunter's suit fails he maybe doesn't get as close to a deer.

Would you say there might be a need for different engineering requirements for the two things? How on earth can you keep a straight face when using this example?

[bioactive]

none will completely stop your scent...theres simply nothing made that can do that...the only people that have all this scientific evidence aren't telling everything...just the good points that will sell this stuff...:D

I certainly agree with your first statement. There is nothing that can completely eliminate human odor under normal hunting conditions.

However, I don't share your belief that every company selling scent products is "not telling everything." There are a few good companies out there. For example, one of the best documents ever written on the subject of scent control comes from the Wildlife Research Center.

http://www.wildlife.com/Portals/wildlife/bookandarticles/scentfreesecretsbook07.pdf

They point out that scent control is about making an effort to reduce the amount of scent released to below the "alarm" level of the deer. This is a very important concept. There is a great diagram on page 8 that shows that the idea is not to eliminate scent, but to reduce it enough so that animals come closer.

Here is a diagram that we use to help people understand it is about scent reduction, not elimination:

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/photopost/data/500/medium/Human_Scent_discussion.jpg

[coonskinner]

and the beat goes on...:D

[deerhunt45]

Activated carbon is proven technology. With that said, we know that smoke can fool a deer's nose in a lot of situations. It's a choice as to what technology or method you use...what I have learned is to use one or the other option when situations dictate.

[coonskinner]

so i wonder in this court case why this information is sealed...lets have transparency...:D

[deerhunt45]

so i wonder in this court case why this information is sealed...lets have transparency...:D

Because there are patents and licensing and trademarks etc etc involved. The law allows for some confidentiality. The verdict will come out sooner or later.

[jackalope]

First let me ask you a couple of questions.

1. Will a standard pickup truck meet the testing criteria that a U.S. Army tank needs to meet? No? Does that mean that the pickup truck is not useful for hauling your deer home?

Not tanks for trucks. But trucks for trucks yes.. Until the innovation of the HUMVEE the Army used 1 ton Chevy trucks..


2. Will a 4th of July fireworks rocket meet the standards of a U.S. military ballistic missile? No? Does that mean the 4th of July rocket is not useful for entertaining people?

Separate technologies. 1 entertains 1 enters the stratosphere and reenters smacking a house half a world away.

I could say Scent loc is marketing and charging for an ICBM and delivering the technological equivalent of a bottle rocket.


A military activated carbon suit is meant to keep a soldier from coming into contact with significant concentrations of molecules that will kill them if the suit is not effective. It needs thousands of times more carbon than a hunting suit does to be effective for the need it is designed for. And that carbon has to be kept in completely pristine condition until the moment of use.

Yes A MOPP garment must stop the soldier from coming into contact with Chem / Bio agents that even in Parts per million will blister or kill them... Likewise a deer smells in about 6-40 parts per million... The suits in order to do their intended jobs (absorbing massive amounts or even smaller amounts down to Parts per million) need to have the same level of effectiveness..

BTW if i follow your argument and choose not to disagree with you.. Lets say for a moment you are right.. That the Military MOPP suit needs "thousands of times more carbon" to be effective.. Then why do hunters continue to pay companies like Scent lock thousands of dollars when they can purchase a garment that in you words again "contains thousands times more carbon... right here...... FOR 35 bucks.. Still sealed, activated and thousands times better than Scent lock.
http://www.qm-supply.com/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=56

Here is one for the buy it now price of 9.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/U.S.G.I.-Issue-NBC-Mopp-Suit,-Uniss,-Sealed-In-Bag,-Med_W0QQitemZ200325944480QQcmdZViewItem


In contrast, a hunting activated carbon suit is meant to slow down the evolution of minute amounts of odor from the human body in order to have a deer not be able to smell him effectively. It is to a military suit as your deer rifle is to a 50 caliber machine gun.

I don't think "Forget the wind just hunt" implies it is intended to only slow down minute amounts of odor.. Nor is it marketed iin such a way.


If the soldiers suit fails he dies.

If the hunter's suit fails he maybe doesn't get as close to a deer.


You could look at it that way.. I choose to see it as If the hunters suit fails he was scammed out of way over priced ineffective garments, that are apparently only useful to slow down minute amounts of odor..


Would you say there might be a need for different engineering requirements for the two things? How on earth can you keep a straight face when using this example?

Nope.. Both need to stop contamination in the range of parts per million to be classified as effective garments....... One fails immediately IMO the other fails in 22 hours exposure to air.

As far as having a straight face one could wonder the same.

[coonskinner]

Not tanks for trucks. But trucks for trucks yes.. Until the innovation of the HUMVEE the Army used 1 ton Chevy trucks..



Separate technologies. 1 entertains 1 enters the stratosphere and reenters smacking a house half a world away.

I could say Scent loc is marketing and charging for an ICBM and delivering the technological equivalent of a bottle rocket.



Yes A MOPP garment must stop the soldier from coming into contact with Chem / Bio agents that even in Parts per million will blister or kill them... Likewise a deer smells in about 6-40 parts per million... The suits in order to do their intended jobs (absorbing massive amounts or even smaller amounts down to Parts per million) need to have the same level of effectiveness..

BTW if i follow your argument and choose not to disagree with you.. Lets say for a moment you are right.. That the Military MOPP suit needs "thousands of times more carbon" to be effective.. Then why do hunters continue to pay companies like Scent lock thousands of dollars when they can purchase a garment that in you words again "contains thousands times more carbon... right here...... FOR 35 bucks.. Still sealed, activated and thousands times better than Scent lock.
http://www.qm-supply.com/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=56

Here is one for the buy it now price of 9.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/U.S.G.I.-Issue-NBC-Mopp-Suit,-Uniss,-Sealed-In-Bag,-Med_W0QQitemZ200325944480QQcmdZViewItem



I don't think "Forget the wind just hunt" implies it is intended to only slow down minute amounts of odor.. Nor is it marketed iin such a way.



You could look at it that way.. I choose to see it as If the hunters suit fails he was scammed out of way over priced ineffective garments, that are apparently only useful to slow down minute amounts of odor..



Nope.. Both need to stop contamination in the range of parts per million to be classified as effective garments....... One fails immediately IMO the other fails in 22 hours exposure to air.

As far as having a straight face one could wonder the same.

thunderflight could get a good deal on them...i could get my sister to buy me some of the military issue...notttttttttttttttttttt...ill just wera my blue jeans...:biggrin:

[mrex]

""I'm on the pro staff of the largest scent / lure manufacturing company in the world. I have access to gallons of various cover scents at no cost and I don't use any of them. I liken cover scents to perfume on *****, it's just sweet smelling *****. Smoke is not a lure or a cover scent.""

Then why are you on their pro staff if you don't believe in using them?

...and they're also the worlds largest manufacturer of hunting accessories, some of which I do use.

[brock ratcliff]

...and they're also the worlds largest manufacturer of hunting accessories, some of which I do use.
I should send you a Scent Smoker hat- the largest benefit of being one of our "pro-staff". :)

[bioactive]

Not tanks for trucks. But trucks for trucks yes.. Until the innovation of the HUMVEE the Army used 1 ton Chevy trucks..



Separate technologies. 1 entertains 1 enters the stratosphere and reenters smacking a house half a world away.

I could say Scent loc is marketing and charging for an ICBM and delivering the technological equivalent of a bottle rocket.



Yes A MOPP garment must stop the soldier from coming into contact with Chem / Bio agents that even in Parts per million will blister or kill them... Likewise a deer smells in about 6-40 parts per million... The suits in order to do their intended jobs (absorbing massive amounts or even smaller amounts down to Parts per million) need to have the same level of effectiveness..

BTW if i follow your argument and choose not to disagree with you.. Lets say for a moment you are right.. That the Military MOPP suit needs "thousands of times more carbon" to be effective.. Then why do hunters continue to pay companies like Scent lock thousands of dollars when they can purchase a garment that in you words again "contains thousands times more carbon... right here...... FOR 35 bucks.. Still sealed, activated and thousands times better than Scent lock.
http://www.qm-supply.com/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=56

Here is one for the buy it now price of 9.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/U.S.G.I.-Issue-NBC-Mopp-Suit,-Uniss,-Sealed-In-Bag,-Med_W0QQitemZ200325944480QQcmdZViewItem



I don't think "Forget the wind just hunt" implies it is intended to only slow down minute amounts of odor.. Nor is it marketed iin such a way.



You could look at it that way.. I choose to see it as If the hunters suit fails he was scammed out of way over priced ineffective garments, that are apparently only useful to slow down minute amounts of odor..



Nope.. Both need to stop contamination in the range of parts per million to be classified as effective garments....... One fails immediately IMO the other fails in 22 hours exposure to air.

As far as having a straight face one could wonder the same.

Well, I cannot argue with you about purchasing military activated carbon suits. They are almost certain to be much more effective than the hunting garments even though they do not meet military standards. So I agree completely with you on that. The problem is, that hunters seem to prefer to overpay for things. So instead of buying baking soda and hydrogen peroxide and making a scent elimination spray with water for pennies, they prefer to pay $15 for a bottle that has a picture of a deer on it. Same thing with activated carbon clothing. You can buy powdered carbon and make your own activated carbon gloves for $1.00 or pay $30 for partially activated carbon gloves. Same with an old pair of long underwear vs. the $80 store bought ones.

Regarding your other points, I'm sorry I just can't take this analogy seriously. There is simply no way to compare the engineering requirements of a military garment that protects soldiers from deadly chemicals, and a recreational garment that is meant to diminish the scent of a hunter.

I think there are a lot of valid reasons to question the value of an activated carbon garment, but that it won't meet military standards is not one of them.

The fact that my fishing boat won't meet the needs of a Coast Guard Cutter says nothing about its value to me as a vessel.

[coonskinner]

bio what hurts your credability is you sell the stuff...now tell us all the downsides...all of them...:D

[bioactive]

bio what hurts your credability is you sell the stuff...now tell us all the downsides...all of them...:D

You want the downsides to what Scent Lok sells or what I sell? It is as different as apples and apple trees:).

One of the very first things I ever do when talking to someone interested in hearing about my product is to tell them the biggest downside about it. If they don't know what this major issue is up front they would have a real issue with me not telling them. And it is completely different than the downsides to Scent Lok.

It makes you dirty! I mean, really dirty!

You have to be a serious bow hunter to even consider using this product. When I hear from someone they are a casual few days a year gun hunter I simply tell them this product is probably not for you. It is for the guy who already is using extreme scent control but wants to take it to the next step, and is willing to deal with the fact that they are going to look like a coal miner when they come home from hunting.

By the way, the reason I sell the stuff is I heard about activated carbon powder from two top hunters in the state of Michigan. One was Tony LaPratt. I tried the product from a company already on the market, got addicted to it, and decided to bypass the incredibly high price and go to a wholesaler to get it. Once I had a bunch of it, I thought, why not do hunters a favor and put this product on the market at a reasonable price that hunters can afford? So my wife and I started the business.

So, you might say, I don't say the stuff is good because I am selling it, it would be more correct to say I choose to sell it because it is so good and I want to help others to attain the kind of scent control only 100% activated carbon can provide.

[Milo]

I should send you a Scent Smoker hat- the largest benefit of being one of our "pro-staff". :)Don't forget the sleeveless shirts:mischeif:

[bioactive]

bio what hurts your credability is you sell the stuff...now tell us all the downsides...all of them...:D

Oh, by the way coonskinner, I was making many of the same arguments I have made in this thread on the Michigan Sportsmen Forum before I ever had a product on the market. Here is a thread from way back before I had a product. In fact, in this thread, you can find a post from me recommending that someone buy TruCarbon, which is the competitor for my product I mentioned in the last post. So you can hardly suggest that I tout the stuff because I sell it. I was touting it before I even thought of selling it, and recommending my current compteitor.

http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1791240&highlight=scent#post1791240

Keep in mind, none of the issues I have been arguing regarding the Scent Lok gear are particularly relevant with my product. I do not sell garments, my product does not have to be reactivated in a dryer, it is not used by the military:) (that I know of), it is just a completely different product. I argue the Scent Lok issue just because I think it is the right thing to do.

I have felt for a long time that hunters have been hurt by misinformation from people like TR Michels. If a hunter can afford Scent Lok, and they are not using it because of some of the crazy, pseudoscientific articles by Michels and others, then they are greatly reducing the qualtiy of their hunting experience. I have all the activated carbon powder I want, but I still use scent Lok garments. Why? Because they work. I have no reason to say that whatsoever. My competitor puts Scent Lok down because they think it is good for them. I don't care. I want to use my scientific experience and expertise to help fellow hunters have the best experience possible in the woods.

You may not believe that, but if you follow the history of my posts at MSF, you will see how I was passionate about this long before I got into it. It was the passion for the product that led me into marketing it, not the reverse.

[XX78]

That's it I think I'm gonna have work place a large order from Sigma next week...:mischeif:

[coonskinner]

i find it interesting when you spoke about reducing your scent just 50% and it maybe not alarming the deer at that level...i went to the mich. link and read that...i find this interesting because i have said this for years about scent reduction and tricking the whitetails nose...my goal when using detergents...i have personally witnessed confused whitetails 20 yds. from me ,checking my scent thats going to them but they are looking 20 yds past me to a human footpath that i wanted there for this very reason...they linked the smell to a human on the path or farther away than i really was...i know the best i can do using all methods available is to reduce scent just a little more...this could include using scentlock apperal too but the cost was too much to justify for me...i believe in washing my clothes with no scent products,never regular soap,i do use the washing machine...but i air my clothes outside for at least a month and they probably seen a rain or two...i use only non scented soap and shampoo...take very hot steamy showers ...clean my butt very well with non scented paper,clean my ears well and descent,and brush my teeth,theres urine smell also on us...i drink water only or try too...as a person that drinks a lot of pop i have found after a day of scouting on a hot aug. day i would smell very skunky from all that pepsi coming from my pores...i drank only water and could not believe the difference...i can liken this to a guy that filled up on beer and sweats on a very hot day...i cut my hair to a #1 buzz or #2 buzz...where rubber boots...and if i'm climbing a ladder to a stand i use rubber gloves...every little bit helps...some people also have very smelly feet...theres more than just sweat coming from our bodies...i also believe in going in early to my hunting spot,because it gives the deer the impression that your trail is older than it is...for instance you go in the woods 2 hours before light...a big buck comes by 2 hours after daylight and wifs your ground scent...to him its 4 hrs. old...i see him looking off in the direction far off where he thinks i might be...when in fact i'm 20 yds. from him...tricking him...the rubber boots might help some here too...again every little thing you do adds up...if your product just illiminates 5% of human scent that would help a little more...i can not believe there is any one product out there that would reduce your scent to 50%...i have heard 100% claims...and i laugh at that...and even 50% seems far fetched using any one product on its own...also i will add about smoke...in most deer woods i have ever been in it will be in a rural area...many of the homes there use woodburners...our deer camp has a campfire...smoke is very common everyday scent in the woods...deer become used to it and don't fear it until they learn to associate it as a human...which they will if hunters use it enough,i do believe smoke is mostly a cover scent...my scent reduction was learned from an article years ago myles keller,back when he used a black widow bow...since then i've added my own touches...and i've had some nice bucks walk around my tree without alarming...:D

[jackalope]

Don't forget the sleeveless shirts:mischeif:


lol yeah put that on the cover.... lol

[Thunderflight]

BTW if i follow your argument and choose not to disagree with you.. Lets say for a moment you are right.. That the Military MOPP suit needs "thousands of times more carbon" to be effective.. Then why do hunters continue to pay companies like Scent lock thousands of dollars when they can purchase a garment that in you words again "contains thousands times more carbon... right here...... FOR 35 bucks.. Still sealed, activated and thousands times better than Scent lock.
http://www.qm-supply.com/zenstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=56

Here is one for the buy it now price of 9.99
http://cgi.ebay.com/U.S.G.I.-Issue-NBC-Mopp-Suit,-Uniss,-Sealed-In-Bag,-Med_W0QQitemZ200325944480QQcmdZViewItem
.

Because the older military MOPP suits leave charcoal all over your (the new type don't) and they don't come in the latest camo patters. They also don't last long either. Last long is defined as wear in the field. A scent lok suit will hold up over several season where as a MOPP suit might make it through half (dependant of course on how hard you hunt). I used to us the Britt MOPP suits and the stickers and bushes really wore them out quickly.

[Thunderflight]

thunderflight could get a good deal on them...i could get my sister to buy me some of the military issue...notttttttttttttttttttt...ill just wera my blue jeans...:biggrin:

I used to be able to get them for free. My neighor was a retired NBC officer.

[Thunderflight]

I should send you a Scent Smoker hat- the largest benefit of being one of our "pro-staff". :)

Don't forget the sleeveless shirts:mischeif:

Can you buy the sleevless shirst on line? If so I'll order a large!!

Here is my experience with MOPP suits, and two scent lok suits.


I used Britt MOPP suits for two seasons. I bought them from Sportsmansguide.com for about $10 each and was VERY inpressed with how well the reduced my scent signature (Bio's previous scent picture is spot on IMO). The only beef I had with the suits was they they weren't very sturdy (actually it scared be because if I was running around dodging bullets/mortars with VX in the air I'd hate to have the suit tear that easy, but rest asured the new USA suits are tough and much better than the el cheapo sportsmansguide.com UK suits).

The following year I got a green liner and boy did this thing work good!!! I mean it was incredible. I'd have deer 10 feet away directly down wind and didn't seem to care one bit at all. I didn't hunt the following season because I was deployed, but used the same suit the following season and it didnt' work for crap!!!

OK, so I figured the carbon was worn out and I got a new suit, in my favorite camo. The Cabelas suit did "OK" compared to the liner. I noticed that the deer would still smell me, but would seem to think I was further away. I had several spots where the wind was always wrong and I always saw deer from them. Just for shiits I started switching on and off with the suit (one hunt wear it the other not). On the days I didn't wear it I never saw a deer. On the days I had it I had them in bow range every time. Guess what happened the following year? The suit didn't work even 3/4 as good.

So IMO scent lok suits do work, but you'll need to get a new one every year. Depending on the cost this could quickly become EXPENSIVE. One thing that has never sat well with me was they sell them in none air tight bags. I find myself questioning this because from my experience this is only reducing the life of the suit.

Scent Smoker is the tool I'll be using, hopefully, in November. I used it once last Spring during a hog hunt with incredible results.

[bioactive]

i find it interesting when you spoke about reducing your scent just 50% and it maybe not alarming the deer at that level...i went to the mich. link and read that...i find this interesting because i have said this for years about scent reduction and tricking the whitetails nose...my goal when using detergents...i have personally witnessed confused whitetails 20 yds. from me ,checking my scent thats going to them but they are looking 20 yds past me to a human footpath that i wanted there for this very reason...they linked the smell to a human on the path or farther away than i really was...i know the best i can do using all methods available is to reduce scent just a little more...this could include using scentlock apperal too but the cost was too much to justify for me...i believe in washing my clothes with no scent products,never regular soap,i do use the washing machine...but i air my clothes outside for at least a month and they probably seen a rain or two...i use only non scented soap and shampoo...take very hot steamy showers ...clean my butt very well with non scented paper,clean my ears well and descent,and brush my teeth,theres urine smell also on us...i drink water only or try too...as a person that drinks a lot of pop i have found after a day of scouting on a hot aug. day i would smell very skunky from all that pepsi coming from my pores...i drank only water and could not believe the difference...i can liken this to a guy that filled up on beer and sweats on a very hot day...i cut my hair to a #1 buzz or #2 buzz...where rubber boots...and if i'm climbing a ladder to a stand i use rubber gloves...every little bit helps...some people also have very smelly feet...theres more than just sweat coming from our bodies...i also believe in going in early to my hunting spot,because it gives the deer the impression that your trail is older than it is...for instance you go in the woods 2 hours before light...a big buck comes by 2 hours after daylight and wifs your ground scent...to him its 4 hrs. old...i see him looking off in the direction far off where he thinks i might be...when in fact i'm 20 yds. from him...tricking him...the rubber boots might help some here too...again every little thing you do adds up...if your product just illiminates 5% of human scent that would help a little more...i can not believe there is any one product out there that would reduce your scent to 50%...i have heard 100% claims...and i laugh at that...and even 50% seems far fetched using any one product on its own...also i will add about smoke...in most deer woods i have ever been in it will be in a rural area...many of the homes there use woodburners...our deer camp has a campfire...smoke is very common everyday scent in the woods...deer become used to it and don't fear it until they learn to associate it as a human...which they will if hunters use it enough,i do believe smoke is mostly a cover scent...my scent reduction was learned from an article years ago myles keller,back when he used a black widow bow...since then i've added my own touches...and i've had some nice bucks walk around my tree without alarming...:D

coonskinner;

You mention foot smell. Funny. The first time I ever heard of activated carbon powder I was listening to a seminar and the guy said he got some of the stuff in the mail and decided to try it on his stinkiest pair of shoes. sprinkled the powder in and the stink completely disappeared.

You can test this yourself. I suppose you have access to coon urine from your handle. At shows we take a piece of filter and spray fox urine on it. The odor will knock you back on your heels. We then shake it in a little baggie of powder (we will use about 1 gram of powder to do 30 demonstrations) when you smell it the odor is usually completely gone (for most people), although some folks with a good sniffer can still pick up some ammonia smell.

The stuff is so powerful that if you are a serious hunter, once you see it in action you will probably never be without it again. Again, I'm not saying that because I sell it, I'm selling it because that is the experience I (and most people I know) have had when they use it.

[coonskinner]

coonskinner;

You mention foot smell. Funny. The first time I ever heard of activated carbon powder I was listening to a seminar and the guy said he got some of the stuff in the mail and decided to try it on his stinkiest pair of shoes. sprinkled the powder in and the stink completely disappeared.

You can test this yourself. I suppose you have access to coon urine from your handle. At shows we take a piece of filter and spray fox urine on it. The odor will knock you back on your heels. We then shake it in a little baggie of powder (we will use about 1 gram of powder to do 30 demonstrations) when you smell it the odor is usually completely gone (for most people), although some folks with a good sniffer can still pick up some ammonia smell.

The stuff is so powerful that if you are a serious hunter, once you see it in action you will probably never be without it again. Again, I'm not saying that because I sell it, I'm selling it because that is the experience I (and most people I know) have had when they use it.

a dirty cat litter box makes for good testing...for ten bucks i might give it my ultimate test...some litter box deoderizers sold on the market with charcoal have failed the test rather badly...xpect honest answer on results...i'm not biased in any way...:biggrin:

[bioactive]

a dirty cat litter box makes for good testing...for ten bucks i might give it my ultimate test...some litter box deoderizers sold on the market with charcoal have failed the test rather badly...xpect honest answer on results...i'm not biased in any way...:biggrin:

I suspect that the litter box charcoal was in a granular form. It would be impossible to use a powder form in this application because indoor use would be completely out of the question because the cat would track the powder all over the house. With carbon in granular form, there will be lots of spaces around the particles that will let odors escape. In contrast, if you were to use the powder, and completely coat the materials it would probably pretty much more completely block the odors. However, as I said, this is impossible to achieve in a sensible product form because the powder is so messy. In fact, it is so bad that you should never even open a container of it inside the house. It is aggressively messy!

All activated carbon products have the downside, when used in clothing, that you cannot completely cover the surface area for escape of gases (unless you go to high end military applications, perhaps) because of the porousness of the garment. When you are making a garment for sale, that will be washed repeatedly, the carbon has to be in granular form in order for it to stay trapped in the pores of the garment. if you used powder form, it would just come out. We use powder because it can be shaken up with clothes or clothes can be put in a solution of it and it will enter the pores. It won't stay there on washing, but it is able to get in because of the minute size of the particles. However, you cannot completely fill the pores, so both versions are incomplete in their ability to trap all odors coming out. All they are achieving is a reduction in the amount of odor. So if you have a pile of sh*t under your shirt, you will still be able to smell it.

For the same reason, putting carbon granules, like the ones in Scent Lok, or the ones that might have been used in the cat litter, would not completely remove the stink on a filter sprayed with fox pee or your stinky shoes. On the other hand, fine powder will much more effectively cover the surface of the filter or the shoes, and it has a much higher surface area exposure (because of the small particle size of 70 microns diameter, the surface area to volume ratio is far higher with the powder form). Fine powder, when placed on the skin, can completely form a layer of carbon on the skin (it should be wetted first). It will turn your skin completely black, but unlike granular carbon you basically have created a scent shield that does not have macroscopic spaces between the particles, like granular carbon does.

When I am at shows, I spray fox urine on my own skin and prove to people that rubbing a minuscule amount of carbon over it blocks the smell. It is too easy to prove this stuff works!

There are huge downsides to powdered carbon though. Mainly as I have said because it is very messy and dirty. But there is no denying it's effectiveness once you have tried it. I mainly am in this business to provide a product that will help hunters. You don't have to believe me, but if you Google me you will probably figure out that I do not really need the gig. I just want to be in the deer hunting arena and provide a product that helps hunters achieve success. Believe it or not.

[coonskinner]

amazing how much this sounds like enother company selling something that will illiminate human scent...especially the last sentence...sounds like the average sales pitch...and all this scientific jargon...is this stuff even safe or will that be a problem down the road that someone might encounter...i'm still not sold...i got more confidence in the whitetails nose...:D

[bioactive]

amazing how much this sounds like enother company selling something that will illiminate human scent...especially the last sentence...sounds like the average sales pitch...and all this scientific jargon...is this stuff even safe or will that be a problem down the road that someone might encounter...i'm still not sold...i got more confidence in the whitetails nose...:D

Except for the part where I tell you the main drawback right up front. And except for the part that I tell you that it is impossible to completely eliminate human scent. But anyway, your choice to be skeptical (actually cynical). I was never trying to sell you anything, just answering specific questions you asked.

As far as safety goes, if you swallow some poison and go to the emergency room, one choice they will have is to have you swallow a bunch of activated carbon to adsorb the poison. Why? Because it is so good at doing so, and it is completely benign. If you are a coal miner and breath coal dust for 20 or 30 years you could get black lung disease. Otherwise, you are good to go for casual use. Just don't snort it.

And if you think I am answering your questions because I am trying to sell you on my product, that is just not true. We don't even market our product outside Michigan right now. We are in a slow growth phase of the business and cannot even handle a large volume if coonskinner all of a sudden sees the light and gets all of his friends in Ohio to buy the product. The only reason I am a sponsor on this website is because it is associated with the Michigan Sportmen Forum, where I do advertise. But if you search the posts, you will not find me hyping it. I will answer specific questions like your's when asked, but only if asked. So whether you believe it or not, the only reason I am telling you about it is because you asked. We are not even intending to try to sell outside Michigan until next year.

The only reason I came on this site in the first place is because I have been waging a war for several years now against misinformation about activated carbon garments, (which I do not sell)! TR Michels, the leader of the misinformation movement came here, and I followed him. You asked me some questions and I answered them. End of story.

[coonskinner]

Except for the part where I tell you the main drawback right up front. And except for the part that I tell you that it is impossible to completely eliminate human scent. But anyway, your choice to be skeptical (actually cynical). I was never trying to sell you anything, just answering specific questions you asked.

As far as safety goes, if you swallow some poison and go to the emergency room, one choice they will have is to have you swallow a bunch of activated carbon to adsorb the poison. Why? Because it is so good at doing so, and it is completely benign. If you are a coal miner and breath coal dust for 20 or 30 years you could get black lung disease. Otherwise, you are good to go for casual use. Just don't snort it.

And if you think I am answering your questions because I am trying to sell you on my product, that is just not true. We don't even market our product outside Michigan right now. We are in a slow growth phase of the business and cannot even handle a large volume if coonskinner all of a sudden sees the light and gets all of his friends in Ohio to buy the product. The only reason I am a sponsor on this website is because it is associated with the Michigan Sportmen Forum, where I do advertise. But if you search the posts, you will not find me hyping it. I will answer specific questions like your's when asked, but only if asked. So whether you believe it or not, the only reason I am telling you about it is because you asked. We are not even intending to try to sell outside Michigan until next year.

The only reason I came on this site in the first place is because I have been waging a war for several years now against misinformation about activated carbon garments, (which I do not sell)! TR Michels, the leader of the misinformation movement came here, and I followed him. You asked me some questions and I answered them. End of story.

fair enough i appreciate it...you're very professional and have a lot of class...i really liked this discussion and agree a lot you say makes sense...:biggrin: