PDA

View Full Version : Is this a myth?




ohiosam
12-21-2008, 09:52 PM
The "safe" slug myth: shotgun slugs are required in some areas, but why?



The shotgun slug is less safe and more dangerous in the field than a 150 grain .30-06 bullet or a 50-caliber muzzleloading projectile. Does that statement sound improbable? Conventional wisdom would say so.
I've just finished digesting a 67-page technical report commissioned by the Pennsylvania Legislative Budget and Finance Committee that blows a hole in conventional wisdom and the increasing establishment of shotgun-slug-only zones by state's game agencies.
What prompted the study? A lawsuit involving a hunting accident in which a woman sitting in a car was struck by a stray rifle bullet coupled with increasing sportsmen's opposition to the expansion of shotgun slug and muzzleloading-only zones on the decision of the Pennsylvania Game Commission.



When the professional staff of the Game Commission questioned other states with about their slug policies, they found no state had any definitive safety data to support the decision to restrict zones to shotgun slugs. Quoting from the report, "They found in the shotgun-only states, this appears to be an issue driven by emotion and politics rather than sound scientific data."


The Army Weighs In
The research firm, Mountaintop Technologies, conducted the resulting outside-contracted study. Its prime subcontractor was the US Army Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at the Picatinny Arsenal.


The Picatinny research team used the concept of Surface Danger Zones to compare the relative risk performance of three projectiles: a 150-grain SP fired from a .30-06 with a muzzle velocity of 2,910 fps, a 385-grain, 12-gauge, 50-caliber sabot load with a hollowpoint, semi-spitzer projectile at 1,900 fps and, for the muzzleloaders, a 348-grain, 50-caliber CVA Powerbelt projectile at 1,595 fps.


The March 2007 study looked at the maximum range a projectile would reach at various firing angles of elevation plus the distance the projectile would ricochet after impacting the ground. The data is intriguing.
At a maximum firing angle of elevation of 35-degrees, the rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader projectiles travel 13,926', 10,378', and 9,197' respectfully. Because of the angle of descent, there are no ricochets.
At a firing angle of 10-degrees, the rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader projectiles travel 10,004', 7,163' and 6,247' respectfully plus additional ricochet distances of 702', 949' and 913' respectfully.


Ah, but the big surprise comes at 0-degrees of elevation which would be more or less a typical shot at a deer on level terrain. Here the rifle, shotgun and muzzleloader projectiles travel 1,408', 840', and 686' respectfully plus ricochet distances of 3,427', 4,365', and 3,812' respectfully. Now the total distances traveled by the projectiles are 4,835' for the rifle, 5,205' for the shotgun and 4,498' for the muzzleloader.


"The smaller cross sectional area of the .30-caliber projectile and its shape contributes to a higher loss of energy on impact and, after ricochet, the 30-caliber projectile tends to tumble in flight with a high drag. Test data confirm that the 50-caliber projectile's larger cross sectional area and its shape contribute to less energy loss on shallow angles of impact and, after ricochet, the projectile exhibits less drag which results in a greater total distance traveled.


"It is recommended the Pennsylvania Game Commission address the public perception a shotgun with modern high-velocity ammunition is less risky than centerfire rifles in all circumstances ... Frangible, or reduced ricochet, projectiles for hunting firearms should be investigated as an alternative to the mandatory use of shotguns or muzzleloaders."
Far Reaching


I think the effect of this study may be far reaching and it's why I have covered it in such detail. State game agencies tend to talk to one another and, indeed, tend to copy each other's regulations. It will be interesting to see what impact this study may have on present or future slug-only zones and on shotgun slug design itself.
The answer may be in making the shotgun slug more frangible. Slug design is increasingly taking on the structure and composition of a jacketed bullet. Looking at the design of the new xp3 Winchester, the Hornady SST, and Federal Fusion slugs, it's clear we are already there. They're built like jacketed bullets, and they upset and expand like jacketed bullets. They're the finest rifled shotgun slugs we've ever had plus muzzle velocities keep increasing with every passing year.


I'm sure the major ammunition companies are studying this groundbreaking report from Pennsylvania with keen interest. Knowing them as I do, they will have a solution to slug ricochet problem within months so stay tuned.
COPYRIGHT 2007 Publishers' Development Corporation
COPYRIGHT 2008 Gale, Cengage Learning




dnm
12-22-2008, 08:41 AM
That makes an interesting point. Ive always wished you could rifle hunt here in ohio

Buck-hunter44
12-22-2008, 09:34 AM
i like shotgun hunting better than rifle hunting!
i think of it alot more challenging...and i think if there was rifle hunting in ohio..it would mess with the QDM.
You would have people shooting 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 old deer from 300 yards away!
thats how i think of it

uglykat26
12-22-2008, 09:44 AM
im happy shooting slugs in ohio

CritterGitter
12-22-2008, 10:16 AM
That report sounds like a big load of horse turd to me. They have a decent argument if in every single hunting scenario the angle of fire is always at 0 degrees. However, if the prey is above the hunter in hilly terrain your angle goes way up and sometimes dramatically. Also, I can see repeated blasting from a rifle at running deer by some of the "lead flinging" types around here. :yikes:

Also, seems the newer technical sabot slugs would behave more like the bullets and less like the typical round ball slug is something that actually hurts the argument being made in that report. I don't have the technical smarts to definitively say they are wrong, but it sure sounds like a bunch of poo to me!

ohiosam
12-22-2008, 10:25 AM
That report sounds like a big load of horse turd to me. They have a decent argument if in every single hunting scenario the angle of fire is always at 0 degrees. However, if the prey is above the hunter in hilly terrain your angle goes way up and sometimes dramatically.

Interesting, the usual argument is that Ohio is too flat for rifles. Now it's to hilly?


Also, seems the newer technical sabot slugs would behave more like the bullets and less like the typical round ball slug is something that actually hurts the argument being made in that report .

This is the slug from the test.
"a 385-grain, 12-gauge, 50-caliber sabot load with a hollowpoint, semi-spitzer projectile at 1,900 fps"

BuckUp
12-22-2008, 10:30 AM
i like shotgun hunting better than rifle hunting!
i think of it alot more challenging...and i think if there was rifle hunting in ohio..it would mess with the QDM.
You would have people shooting 1 1/2 and 2 1/2 old deer from 300 yards away!
thats how i think of it

You hit the nail on the head. They have desimated the herd here in Ky. with well over 30 days of mash-em-flat magnum season.
I bow hunt Ohio every year for 20 days and see 25 times more deer than hunting the whole season here in Ky.
Limited shotgun season has saved you all's herd plain an simple.

ohiosam
12-22-2008, 10:34 AM
You hit the nail on the head. They have desimated the herd here in Ky. with well over 30 days of mash-em-flat magnum season.
I bow hunt Ohio every year for 20 days and see 25 times more deer than hunting the whole season here in Ky.
Limited shotgun season has saved you all's herd plain an simple.

I thought it was Tele-check that ruined KY deer hunting?:mischeif:

Cap't Ernie
12-22-2008, 10:40 AM
BuckUp,

Let's consider this for a minute, you just mixed variables.

Are their less deer in KY because of the longer season "30 days", the rifles, or the number of deer KY hunters have been able to shoot each year? Or the number of hunters?

Managing the deer herd is effected by rifle/shotgun debate, but there are many different things and issues mixed in.

Personally, I'd much rather use a rifle. As for guys taking 200-300 yard shots, they are already doing that with their muzzleloaders and slug guns. And there will always be pray and spray hunters even if we switch to blow guns.

Just think of it this way, you'd all get to go buy a new gun! New toys are always good!

Redhunter1012
12-22-2008, 11:43 AM
DNR already has it about right. Personally, I'd like to see the Primitive weapons season change it's name. There's nothing primitive about these ML that are capable of 200 plus yard shots. I like the ML season Kansas has where you can't use scopes.

Buck-hunter44
12-22-2008, 08:00 PM
BuckUp,

Let's consider this for a minute, you just mixed variables.

Are their less deer in KY because of the longer season "30 days", the rifles, or the number of deer KY hunters have been able to shoot each year? Or the number of hunters?

Managing the deer herd is effected by rifle/shotgun debate, but there are many different things and issues mixed in.

Personally, I'd much rather use a rifle. As for guys taking 200-300 yard shots, they are already doing that with their muzzleloaders and slug guns. And there will always be pray and spray hunters even if we switch to blow guns.

Just think of it this way, you'd all get to go buy a new gun! New toys are always good!

yea they are with ML's but slug guns?
i know alot of people where i hunt that dont have a slug gun and just a shotgun..now if we had a rifle season every one in ohio would have one!
and i like the idea about the open sighted ML season..

coonskinner
12-22-2008, 08:11 PM
ohio is TOO POPULATED...FOR RIFLES...i have hunted in tx. for 10 yrs. with a 30/06 an theres no comparison in my book...a 30/06 will do at 300 yds. what a shotgun does at 100...an 30/06 can reach out farther...i think somebuddy is reachin here...nobuddy i knew hunted with the inferior shotgun:D

Cap't Ernie
12-22-2008, 09:31 PM
Redhunter, I think as long as its called "muzzleloader" like it is now, you should be able to use sights. But if they change it to "primative" like in PA or NY where (and I have the two confused) there's regulations about not using sabots or just using flinklocks, etc...or could you still use your inline or electric ignition during "primative season" as long as it didn't have a scope on it?

Buck-hunter,

I've heard of guys shooting out to 200 with horandys.

ohiosam
12-22-2008, 09:45 PM
ohio is TOO POPULATED...FOR RIFLES...i have hunted in tx. for 10 yrs. with a 30/06 an theres no comparison in my book...a 30/06 will do at 300 yds. what a shotgun does at 100...an 30/06 can reach out farther...i think somebuddy is reachin here...nobuddy i knew hunted with the inferior shotgun:D

Did you even read the article? In a nutshell the article said a .30 cal 150gr bullet @ 2900 fps is more frangible then a 50 cal 385 grain slug @ 1900 fps and is less prone to ricochet and if it did ricochet had less energy.

The article never said we should change to rifles it said slug design should change to minimize ricochets especially since their use is mandated supposedly for reasons of safety. :coco:

ohiosam
12-22-2008, 09:46 PM
DNR already has it about right. Personally, I'd like to see the Primitive weapons season change it's name. There's nothing primitive about these ML that are capable of 200 plus yard shots. I like the ML season Kansas has where you can't use scopes.

I'll give up the scope on my muzzleloader when you give up the wheels on your bow!;)

CritterGitter
12-23-2008, 08:03 AM
Most places I hunt..........I can't see beyond 100 yards anyway and most muzzy's today are supposed to group well to 100 yards with open sights. I'll be getting my first muzzy this Christmas and I am looking forward to shooting it.

No more slugging for me.

TheCream
12-23-2008, 08:15 AM
Most places I hunt..........I can't see beyond 100 yards anyway and most muzzy's today are supposed to group well to 100 yards with open sights. I'll be getting my first muzzy this Christmas and I am looking forward to shooting it.

No more slugging for me.

You should be pleased with that decision, Kyle. I did the same thing for the last few years, replaced the slug gun with a muzzleloader. Scoped accuracy to 100 yards with ease, just make your 1 shot count! :D

As for rifles in Ohio, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's bad enough sharing the woods with idiots who fling 3 slugs at a running deer at 75 yards...let's not make it 250 yards and expand their danger zone. :irked:

jackalope
12-23-2008, 09:37 AM
I think the DNR should allow Rifles / Muzzloaders / And shotguns... SINGLE SHOT ONLY..... You solved 90% of the problems right there.