Grouse decline-Your opinions please

[copperhead]

My Opinion:
Sure, loss of habitat is a factor in the decline but there is still a lot of cover out there. We have a couple hundred acres in Morgan county and haven't hunted Grouse for 7 years in hopes of bringing them back. There is a small population on the property and we haven't noticed any change in the population. If anything, it's worse. It is perfect Grouse cover.I hunted grouse for 25 years and have a pretty good idea of what grouse cover is. There is something else that's contributing to the decline. The simple fact....the ODNR just doesn't know. (no offense to ODNR)
Possible parasite????? Rise in the population of avian predation and coyotes? Last year on two different occasions, I had two squirrels I was stalking pounced on by hawks. Everyone discards the theory that the turkey comeback has something to do with it, but its sure strange that the Grouse decline started when the Turkey population exploded. I sure miss the sport and wish the ODNR would use the necessary recourses to do the research. I realize Grouse hunting its not the cash cow that Deer and Turkey hunting is for the state but the Grouse is the king of all game birds native to Ohio. I only wish my son, who enjoys hunting and the outdoors could have experienced such a wonderful sport. He only hears the stories.

[Kaiser878]

I missed the "grouse days" of the late 70s and early 80s! Some places had them in vast numbers in the late 80s and early 90s, but not all. Here is my opinion on it. WHat do we have an abundance of now that we didnt have in the late 70s?? Ill give you a clue........GOBBLE GOBBLE. I believe the turkey has a great deal to do with out loss of grouse. I am not blaming it solely on the turks, but a lot of it when it comes to forage and habitat. A turkey eats a lot of the same stuff as a grouse. An area that has enough forage for a grouse to eat for a year is destroyed in about an hour by 20 turkeys comnig through and destroying the forest floor. Granted coyotes arent any better for the birds. Although, a coyote is no better small game hutner than a red fox and we have always had red foxes. The gouse numbers were never really affected by foxes, so Idoubt the coyote has a significant impact on it. Just my 2 cents!

[jackalope]

In vinton county is looks like we have a stable population of maybe 1 per 20 acres that I can hear... We had one a month ago fly through the window at the cabin broke the window and killed the bird. I don't think it's anywhere near a huntable population and we don't hunt them to try and get them to come back.. When I shot my doe, i was field dressing her and I hear a grouse drumming up the hill so loud i could feel it. I look up and he's standing on a fallen log in some green briar not 10 feet away.. Puffed up looking at me drumming away and stomping like a soldier.. He drummed at me the entire time, i was laughing.. Talk about a small bird with a big ego...

[Kaiser878]

That is truly awesome! Too bad you didnt have a cam! I have never witnessed a grouse drumming!

[Lance]

For better or worse I really think it all boils down to habitat, especially here in Ohio. You can point to the coyotes/turkey and Avian predators but htey have all that stuff in MI, especially the predators and in a big way. Due a little research on the number of hawks that winter in Northern MI and you'll be falling out of your chair when you matxh that with the number of grouse they maintain.

If you look at your 200 acres with a completely honest eye AND include surrounding properties. How much of that land can you honestly say to yourself "I've got prime grouse cover here". Even if you've got say 20% of contiguous cover on your land and the surrounding properties are overly mature or farmalnd your going to have a hard time really making a substantial improvment. Not saying you can't do it but you'll really need to make a plan and stick to it.
In reality, more often than not if you've got a lot of turkey your probably limited on the amount of quality grouse cover you have and it's matured to the point that the turkey have moved in. If you can't keep a think enough canopy to keep the hawks and owls off them a little they don't stand a chance. Another good way to analyze your property is to go down once you've got about 4-6" of snow and see what you've got. You'll be shocked how much cover you though you had goes away with a little snow.

We've got 600 acres that we hunt and it has a few birds around here and there. and I've been EXTREMLY busy with the chainsay for the past three years trying to chop out the larger trees that are growing up in the prime spots to ensure they aren't shading out the good stuff and have done a couple small clear cuts as well that I've planted in grouse freindly trees and shrubs. We also had some timbering done this spring. Hopefully I'll start seeing some improvements next year, I know the number of drummers around this spring has been slightly higher. :)

[ohiosam]

Memory fades but it seems the area I hunt in Columbiana county has if anything better cover then it did 25 years ago. Maybe some type of plants have declined that I haven't noticed. I hunt some places that seem to have excellent cover. With high timber prices almost all the area I hunt has been timbered at least once in that time frame.

One place 3 years ago I had 5 flushes in about 200 yards while deer hunting, and heard drumming during deer and turkey season. The last 2 years I haven't seen or heard a grouse in that area.

The grouse were declining before the turkeys showed up. The decline in trapping and coon hunting happened around the same time. I believe coon and skunks are worse for ground nesting birds then coyotes.

I don't think there is any one answer. Cover is probably part of the problem around the state along with increased predator populations. A big part of the problem is that the ODNR doesn't seem to care enough to do the research needed to give a firm answer.

[GaryP]

I can offer my opinion, fwiw. I'm almost 39 and mostly deer hunted in western PA around 82-85 when I saw plenty of grouse. For the last 12-15 years I primarily will go after them in Northern MI (below the UP) but have also gone down to Southern Ohio a few times (Salt Fork Area, REC lands). I live just east of Cleveland and if I have half a weekend day free (which I seldom do) I'll take the dog out to some of the larger WA's in NE Ohio and try and look for suitable habitat. I really haven't found any "great" habitat but I do stumble upon 1 or 2 promising spots.

So I'm generally in agreement with Lance and others that think lack of habitat is the main issue. I believe that with enough suitable habitat, grouse can escape predators and find/consume enough food to sustain and even increase their population. Lack of enough habitat leads us to where we are now. Also, grouse supposedly thrive better in colder, snowier winters which are certainly not the norm here anymore in Ohio. Although, grouse certainly survive in Appalachia well south of Ohio but maybe it's only at elevation. Obviously we can't do much about the weather.

Anyways, what is good grouse habitat in my opinion? Ground cover. Year-round food supply and a variety of habitats all with appreciable ground cover. Grouse will eat a large variety of fruits, nuts, buds, and salads but 2 things seem to be especially important: nuts in the fall and buds/catkins available throughout winter. And these usually need to be easily accessable from the ground.

Grouse definitely need a large area of really thick ground cover, preferably with overhead cover also to keep the hawks/owls away. They need access to acorns or other types of nuts but in areas with enough ground cover to conceal them. They also seem to be near some source of water with plenty of cover, whether a swamp, creek, or low area with spring-fed puddles. And they seem to need access to a good stand of pines, preferably of mixed growth.

I used to think that all you needed was a thicket, preferably thornapple or rosebush. But that in itself really won't sustain a population very long. Thornapple needs to be a mix of growth, I can find stands of mature thornapple that seem thick at the head and chest level, but get on hands and knees and there's no ground cover because there's no young trees. Plus, the birds won't have an easy time getting buds in the winter.
I've hunted grouse plenty of times and found them in the more open areas adjacent to heavy cover feeding on acorns, berries, salads. Most often these open areas are maturing woods but still with appreciable ground cover. But my dog has also busted a couple out of the lone bush or young fir tree left in a mature stand of hardwoods. And the couple of times I've braved the cold fall rains I usually have luck finding them in the grass fields about 5 feet in from the treeline/thicker cover.

Bottom line to me is that in my experience grouse take plenty of chances in the search for food. Can they minimize their exposure by having enough ground cover as they go from one habitat to the other?

Here in Ohio, you can find plenty of mature woods and stumble upon some young growth areas which should be able to hold grouse. But if there's not enough ground cover adjacent to the young area, and there's no other young growth areas within 1/2 to 1 mile then it's really insufficient IMO. Here in NE Ohio I can find plenty of swamps, creeks, mature oak and beech stands, small mature thornapple stands, dying rose bush, mature cottonwood (poplar), and reasonable numbers of mature pine stands. It really depresses me to see all this and have our DNR do nothing to try and manage it. In fact, some of the young growth areas are on pheasant areas and they'll bush-hog these down just as they get to optimum height/density otherwise in a year or two the trees in this area will be too big to be bush-hogged.

Anyways, FWIW.

Lance, if you ever have the time I would certainly be interested to read posts about your planting/cutting on this property you hunt and if you're having any success with grouse numbers, plus any insights.

[Lance]

I'll try to put something together on what we've been doing although it may take a week or two. I've got a couple photo's of some of my cuttings and how we've approached things. If I'm going to put this together I want to make sure I take the time to explain it the best I can. :)

[GaryP]

Great. Not many of us have an opportunity to conduct their own habitat management program. :coolgleamA:

Sounds like you probably put much more thought into it than the DNR would so I'll be interested to hear all about it and ask some questions.

Put it up when you get time. As the dad of a 6 yr old girl and over-energized 2.5 yr old boy I know all about trying to get things done in a timely manner.

[QuailTrap]

I live in SE Ohio (Athens County to be specific very near Vinton County). I have seen habitat change since the 70s, 80s, and early 90s too. A lot, if not most of the places that I hunted grouse back then are not good places to hunt now. That is due to maturing of the forests in those areas. However, In my humble opion there are still plenty of places that the habitat should be excellent for grouse.
I rarely shoot a grouse in Ohio any more. Maybe 1 a season. I am often out "hunting" them with my dogs. carrying a blank pistol. I am mostly into the dog work (I say that because I can't hit the rascals anyway :dizzy:). I spend a lot of time in pursuit of the king of game birds and firmly believe that there are more factors in the decline of grouse than a negative shift in habitat. I don't know what those factors are; however, I don't believe that the ODNR is REALLY doing anything to find out why the grouse population has declined so much.
The ODNR doesn't make a lot of money off of birds hunters. Most people hunt deer and turkey (extra fees). That's where the ODNR focuses most of their efforts and rightly so I guess, because that is what the majority of their customers want.
It is just a shame to see them go. I guess I'll be spending more and more of my time (and money) in MI.

[OHBOW76]

Actually I have been flushing grouse on a routine basis on my buddies property in Ross county, however I have been deer hunting there. In fact this is the first year I can recall flushing grouse. I grew up in PA where grouse are fairly common.

I think we need to remember that 1) Grouse populations are cyclical, 2) less people trap which means more varmints, predators 3) Raptors are protected and there was a time where that wasnt the case.

[tin_knocker]

I also think it is habitat loss and the Wild Turkey population explosion. We used to get into them quite a bit in Ashtabula county and also at Ohio Power in the late 80's to mid 90's. It's been at least 6 years since I last flushed a Grouse and that is a shame. Sure do miss them.

[apat85]

grouse are declining simply because the forests are getting to old to sustain grouse habitat(ie briers). grouse need soft mast(berries) to eat to survive. They need 5-40 year old forests. Our forests are getting much older. it has nothing to do with turkeys populations going up. they eat different foods. turkeys eat hard mast(acorns). that is why turkeys populations are going up in S.E. Ohio because turkeys need 40+ year old forests.
I agree with Ohiosam

[copperhead]

All great opinions but my question is.............
Why in the hell is there a Grouse season????? Sure, the old school of thought was that hunting pressure wasn't a factor in the population of a particular area. But with the depleted numbers we currently have, it can't hurt. A limit of 3 birds.... ridiculous. To me, this demonstrates the lack of focus on the problem by the ODNR. I know you guys with birds dogs that want and need to hunt wouldn't like that idea, sorry. I agree that the loss of habitat is a factor but I have access to a few hundred acres in Morgan County that was select cut years ago with lots of wonderful habitat that should hold birds. Wolf Creek wildlife area is near to our property and has been managed for Grouse. Last year, 4 Hunters, two Setters, 4 hours, 0 flushes. We used to do pretty well there.
Personally, I would have a hard time shooting a Grouse in Ohio today but wouldn't condemn someone who did.

[traphunter]

There has been many good points made in this thread as to why Grouse are declining, and if I was to give my thoughts and opinions on it then i would mainly just be repeating what was already stated.

I too do not understand why with such a decline in the Grouse population in Ohio, that the DNR still keeps the season open.

However only about 10% of Grouse mortality in Ohio comes from hunters. If you think about it how many people do you know that go out and consistently shoot a limit of Grouse?? Not very many, if any at all.

Another 10% comes from accidents, such as getting hit on the road, or flying into windows like Jackalope mentioned.

The remainder and majority or Grouse mortality (80%) comes from predation.

I find this astonishing. I would be willing to bet that a lot of this predation if not most of it, comes from avian predators such as hawks and owls, followed close by feral and house cats.

Even on places with great Grouse habitat, a hen will have an average of 8 poults in the spring, and only around 3 or them will survive until the following spring.

With that being said, in my opinion if we want to bring back Grouse in Ohio we need to:

1) Set back the succession of Ohio's forest to encourage preferable Grouse habitat ( we would be losing turkey habitat )

2) Shoot as many cats and other predators as we can, and open up a season on certain Hawk and Owl species. :yikes: :mischeif:

[OHBOW76]

There has been many good points made in this thread as to why Grouse are declining, and if I was to give my thoughts and opinions on it then i would mainly just be repeating what was already stated.

I too do not understand why with such a decline in the Grouse population in Ohio, that the DNR still keeps the season open.

However only about 10% of Grouse mortality in Ohio comes from hunters. If you think about it how many people do you know that go out and consistently shoot a limit of Grouse?? Not very many, if any at all.

Another 10% comes from accidents, such as getting hit on the road, or flying into windows like Jackalope mentioned.

The remainder and majority or Grouse mortality (80%) comes from predation.

I find this astonishing. I would be willing to bet that a lot of this predation if not most of it, comes from avian predators such as hawks and owls, followed close by feral and house cats.

Even on places with great Grouse habitat, a hen will have an average of 8 poults in the spring, and only around 3 or them will survive until the following spring.

With that being said, in my opinion if we want to bring back Grouse in Ohio we need to:

1) Set back the succession of Ohio's forest to encourage preferable Grouse habitat ( we would be losing turkey habitat )

2) Shoot as many cats and other predators as we can, and open up a season on certain Hawk and Owl species. :yikes: :mischeif:


Hawk and Owl season???? Now that wouldn't go over to well with alot of folks, but I dont disagree that its a decent idea. Heck thinning out some hawks and owls would do wonders for our pheasants and rabbits as well.

[longhaulpointer]

just remember that it is legal to soot pigeons. If one just so happens to be sitting on a post in your favorite pheasant field, well then he had it coming.

as far as grouse hunting goes, i don't buy the no habitat issue. I hunt mainly in scioto county and do so fairly often. The habitat is there and there have been more and more clear cuts over the past several years. Spend any amount of time in Shawnee and trust me you'll find green briars loaded with berries. I have also hunted in MI and Wisc several times and the hunting pressure up there is ridiculous. Not to mention that birds are everywhere up there. Mature or not the birds are all over. Of course there are more birds in the prime cover, but we flush them in the mature forest as well up there.
i don't know what the problem is, but i think that the habitat excuse is getting old. Just my opinion.

[10Gauge]

on our 1300 acre lease in vinton county we have more grouse than turkeys! reason - timber harvests, lots of clear cuts, few trees over 40 years old.

wanna hear something funny, we wish we had more turkeys than grouse on this property because nobody in our hunt club grouse hunts anymore! ironic isn't it?!?!

hawks are a problem all over ohio but the DNR won't do anything to reduce their numbers unless farmers complain that the hawks are eating their ethanol...I mean corn!

[traphunter]

hawks are a problem all over ohio but the DNR won't do anything to reduce their numbers unless farmers complain that the hawks are eating their ethanol...I mean corn!

Not to change the subject but that is SOO true!! These same farmers are usually the ones destroying the habitat in the first place.

[ithaca280]

Hi guys, I am new to this site but am an avid Ohio grouse hunter. I started hunting Ohio in the late 80's. I was blessed with being trained by some of the best grouse hunters in the state of Ohio. Guys who taught me how to hunt them, train dogs and be a respectful sportsman of the King of all game birds. I spend a lot of time in the grouse woods in Ohio, talking with people, reading, researching and as always looking for the right cover. The decline is do to a number of things, a combination that may never be addressed. If any of you have ever read articles form the appalachian grouse research project. One of the early phases of the project was to trap 500 grouse over a 5 year period, radio collar them and track mortality rates and causes. Over 80% were killed by avian predators. Habitat is a factor, turkeys are also a factor and may have something to do with the high avian predation rate. Deer over grazing is another factor often overlooked, remember how much honey suckle you used to see years ago, what happened to it? The ODNR may shorten the season 2009-2010, this may help some but is not the final answer.

[ithaca280]

10 gauge, I would be happy to meet you after deer season and help with your grouse problem. I have an outstanding grouse dog and you would have a blast watching her point them. If not able to hunt it because of the club I would gladly guide my dog while you hunted them.

[Wildman18]

When I was in school for Fish and wild life management. 1 the need for a certain # for stem density 2. south east or west? facing slop 3. lower # of predators. 4. The right food supply ( Its been 15 years since school)

All of these play a role in the lower #'s of grouse. In the early 90's the # of grouse in the Wayne Nat. area in Nelsonville was kind of high. We heard lots of drumming, now I hardly hear any.

I think that if the # of coyotes along with hawks and owls were lower that would help.but most of all the national forest and coal company land cut back the clear cutting and selective cuts. In my opinion is the most drastic reason for the decline. I don't feel that if we clear cut everything that they will have a night and day change it will take time.

A friend of mine in KY said that they have a ton of them down there why is that they don't clear cut that much Do they. They have lots of bobcats and other predators. What are we missing in our habitat?

[wv hunter]

I hunt on timber company owned property, where they select cut and leave plenty of mature hardwoods. A 4 to 8 yr old cutting will produce prime grouse habitat, 6 to 12' high saplings, combined with blackberry briars and laurel thickets. Prime grouse habitat will not have a lot of turkeys if any, it takes away their best defense, their eyesight. There is an abundance of bobcats,coyotes,hawks, etc. The only turkeys you will see around there are on private property where the timber hasn't been cut. I usually average 4 hunters,2dogs,4 to 5 hrs= 20 to 30 flushes. The terrain is very steep and rough,and above 3500', a lot of snow this time of year.

[wv hunter]

On the other hand, where I live in north central wv, grouse are scarce and turkeys are abundant. But in the 80's it was the total opposite. Why? Because the habitat has changed.

[GaryP]

I definitely am in the "lack of habitat" corner and certainly this enables more predation success.

One wildcard factor that doesn't get much mention is the West Nile Virus. It certainly is very deadly for sage grouse http://www.jwildlifedis.org/cgi/content/full/42/1/14. Keep in mind that these studies were conducted on stressed animals in captivity, which generally lowers the effectiveness of their immune system. But there's much evidence of dead ruffed grouse found throughout the NE US infected with West Nile.
I don't know about anyone else, but up here around Cleveland when West Nile first showed up the blue jays and crows seemed to vanish suddenly. Before West Nile you couldn't go near any woods up here without hearing one or both of those birds yelling at you but it all vanished somewhere around 2000. These days both populations seem on the rise to me but nowhere near where they were before West Nile. Could just be a strong coincidence of course, but that virus may have really screwed over an already dwindling grouse population.

Also, I'm told grouse thrive best when there's enough snow to burrow themselves in during the winter. Not sure how true this is, but I have seen multiple sources say that freezing rain during the winter really compromises their survival. So global warming may also contribute.

But the one thing that would ensure the best population possible would be large amounts of suitable habitat. And keep in mind even though you can't turn up a grouse doesn't mean that there's none around. There are certain grouse that learn to fly away silently and well in advance of your dog. My buddy and I have seen it multiple times.

BTW Lance, if you do find the time I'm still interested to hear about your habitat management efforts where you hunt.

[Lance]

Gary I haven't forgotten, just been screwed up 2 months. I'm starting to work on some of it now. As soon as I recover from my gall bladder removal next week I'm going to go down and take some more pictures of my work.

[GaryP]

Lance,

Ugh. Sorry to hear that, it especially sucks to have those issues over the holidays.
If I read your post correctly it sounds like you're going in for the procedure next week. I know things will go well and get better quickly.

And it's always easy to say just about anything over the internet and never mean it. My re-mentioning your grouse efforts was simply to underscore my legitimate interest to hear about it, not to push. I'm looking forward to asking questions and having a discussion about it when you're ready. :)

BTW, after what you mentioned about your private land setup I remembered that back around '97/'98 a friend of mine took me grouse hunting on 600 acres in the same town/area where you go. There was a ring of small campers on a hill and people rented the campers for a yearly fee which allowed them to use the land for hunting, etc. The guy who actually rented one of the campers and hosted us was called "scooter", or something like that I think. At the time he seemed in his mid-40's (maybe even older) with a full beard. I know he grouse hunted it all the time and mentioned that he mostly had the place to himself because everyone else there hunted deer. It was fairly hilly with maturing thornapple. Unfortunately I don't remember any other specific details about the place. We moved a couple of grouse ( none of us had a dog) and got 1 of them. Put up a couple woodcock too, which surprised me because there wasn't a lot of water on that land. It was a warm winter so I figured it was the front part of the migration.
Just wondering if any of that sounds familiar to you?

Gary

[Lance]

Nope, not at all. The place I hunt used to be a Christmas tree farm many moons ago. No worries on asking about my project, I know what you mean about that kind of stuff.


Just to add insult to injury I also pinched my Sciatica nerve the Tuesday before New Years so I'm gimping around pretty well on top of it! #$%*&

It seems to be revoering but very slowly. I've got feeling in my calf now, hopefully I'll get it back in my knee and shin soon. :( As long as I'm good to go to grouse hunt, run chain saws and steelhed fish in Feb I'll be happy. :bouncy:

[GaryP]

Sorry to hear about the sciatica, my wife has had problems like that on occasion and it's certainly frustrating not to mention the pain.

Getting old sure does suck at times doesn't it? I'm almost forty, and last July we were on our family vacation and I was trying to get out of the water on one ski for the first time in my life. Didn't happen and the next day I realized I had strained my PCL and some other tendon/ligament on the outside/back of my left knee. Damn thing finally got healed up in early December. First knee pain/problem I've ever had in my life.

Well, your holidays sure sucked more than mine. Unfortunately we had to put down our GSP of 8 1/2 years, Zoe, on New Year's eve. With my son getting closer to 3 yrs old, I had been hoping to spend a good amount of time in the woods with her this Jan/Feb. Great dog and definitely a real downer to lose her. Some years "the holidays" can be somewhat of an irony, but it'll be better next time around.

[Wildman18]

10 gauge I wish I had your problem My Dog and I are great at solving problems like that. I have an English springer he's not to bad.I think we are going to go to W.N.F. here some.

Ithica I think your right on a lot of what u said, but If the habitat is there, the predation is going to be down. I know for a fact that the state, federal and privet sectors have cut back the logging a ton over the last 15 years that is a large part of the problem.

[hardycm]

Anybody seen the DNR's proposed regs for next season? They are proposing both a reduced bag limit to 2 AND reducing the season to end Jan 31. Guess the DNR is wising up to the lower numbers, but I wonder how much hunting really affects it...

[BIRDDOG8487]

Anybody seen the DNR's proposed regs for next season? They are proposing both a reduced bag limit to 2 AND reducing the season to end Jan 31. Guess the DNR is wising up to the lower numbers, but I wonder how much hunting really affects it...

Just make sure they never eliminate the season. After the blizzards in the 70's they closed the quail seasons. They have never reopened in NW Ohio and no one here gives a damn about quail. Same thing will happen with grouse, they close the season, the hunters gravitate to other game or quit hunting, RGS goes away, and all political pressure to enhance habitat goes with them. It may seem ironic but closing the season is the surest way to insure the grouse never come back.

I know this is off-topic but if they would open a one week quail season in NW Ohio with a five bird SEASON limit you would have a thousand fold more interest in creating and maintaining quail habitat than you do now.

[birddog1]

on our 1300 acre lease in vinton county we have more grouse than turkeys! reason - timber harvests, lots of clear cuts, few trees over 40 years old.

wanna hear something funny, we wish we had more turkeys than grouse on this property because nobody in our hunt club grouse hunts anymore! ironic isn't it?!?!

hawks are a problem all over ohio but the DNR won't do anything to reduce their numbers unless farmers complain that the hawks are eating their ethanol...I mean corn!

That's the same as my 130 acre lease in Carroll County although the grouse seem down this year. The property was timbered approx. 6-7 yrs ago and last year grouse were everywhere. You could hear them drumming all over the property. I'd bust them walking in to my deer stand in the dark - that will get your heart racing. I went out last Thanksgiving with my Dad and brother. We had 6 flushes in 2 hours - unfortunately we couldn't connect.

[hunterjake22]

I agree with traphunter. I hunt in jefferson county. I belong to a sportsmens club and we have almost 4 thousand acres. alot of it has been stripped mined at one time which means the woods are inmature and there is many acres of great grouse cover. This year i saw 5. i saw my first grouse ever 2 years ago. ever since then each year i have been seeing more and more. i think they need to let you shoot some hawks or something. I also agree with the turkey theory.

[coonskinner]

grouse has been declining since late 60s...in the 60s they were everywhere...an back then hunters got a lot of em because almost all hunners hunted them...git the pic trap...i do believe hunners played a role in the beginnin of the slide...i've also heard bad weather an of course turks...i doan think the predators are the main problem...at your age you never seen the good yrs...the way grouse are now as far as numbers has been terrible but remained steady for a lot of yrs...an there jus ain that mainy huntin them now an i doan think there would be even if numbers were high...look at rabbits an squirrel...lots of them but few huntin em...seems all tuhday mainly jus hunt turks an deer...natural predation (we're predators too)is more good than bad in my opinion...wipin out natural predators will only disrupt natures plan which if left alone is the best plan,,,:biggrin:

[Wildman18]

Back in the day there were a lot of timbering on the national and state forest. That is the true reason for the decline. They have to have a certain stem density. Protection from predictors on ground and air. not to mention food. people can talk about it all they want. That's where you will find them and that is what they need. As coon said and as I agree we don't have to shot hawks and all the coyotes (some coyotes are good to shot) If they have the protection they will be fine.

[hunterforlife]

I will apologize for the stupid question ahead of time:whistle: ...This is a pretty stupid question but i have to ask it:bouncy: Why doesn't NW Ohio support grouse...I read an article last year that said the last grouse in NW ohio was harvested in Seneca county in very early 1900's...Well there ya go a dum question. I look forward to a smart @$$ remark and maybe an answer.:biggrin:

[deerhunt45]

I will apologize for the stupid question ahead of time:whistle: ...This is a pretty stupid question but i have to ask it:bouncy: Why doesn't NW Ohio support grouse...I read an article last year that said the last grouse in NW ohio was harvested in Seneca county in very early 1900's...Well there ya go a dum question. I look forward to a smart @$$ remark and maybe an answer.:biggrin:

Because they drained the Great Black Swamp :D

[coonskinner]

Back in the day there were a lot of timbering on the national and state forest. That is the true reason for the decline. They have to have a certain stem density. Protection from predictors on ground and air. not to mention food. people can talk about it all they want. That's where you will find them and that is what they need. As coon said and as I agree we don't have to shot hawks and all the coyotes (some coyotes are good to shot) If they have the protection they will be fine.

i agree an it was lg block timbering or clear cutting...today they cut lots smaller areas so the trees can reseed lots faster an they leave stumps at a certain height to grow suckers...tops are left an they are getting the undergrowth an thick stuff smaller game and grouse need...i do see more an more grouse each year,i remember whem i was lucky to see a grouse all yr. long...:D

[Wildman18]

I bet sciota county has some grouse along St. Rt. 32 there are a lot of clear cuts on the left so you find clear cuts that are 4 to 8 year growths you will find grouse. If the economy was stronger and the demand for wood was greater then persuading the odnr and national forest to do more clear cutting would be easyer. Not to mention the money that it would bring in that could be used to purcuse more land, But now just get a chain saw and hit the forest ( LOL )

[Lance]

Predators keep popping up on here as one of the biggest reasons for low bird numbers. One thing to think about is that our predatory environment here isn't that much different than that of MI and WI, this includes avian. What's different??? habitat. Killing off the predators is only a fix for marginal habitat. A concerted effort to fix he habitat and your numbers will recover. Problem is you've got to do better than fixing 5-10 acres in a 300 acre area to see a really significant improvement. You need to get your surround area in on the game too. Tell the clear cuts will help the deer more than a food plot and they'll jump right in!

[Wildman18]

I'm glad we have goten down to the rut of the problem, but now who can we talk to to fix it? What can we do to help with it?

[coonskinner]

I'm glad we have goten down to the rut of the problem, but now who can we talk to to fix it? What can we do to help with it?

i hate tuh say this but we need more huntin them an i mus amit i gave up long time ago...i was lucky tuh jump one all day hunnin...its a ketch 22...either hunners gotta start huntin em or the odnr has got tuh start creatin more habitat suitable for grose...someone gotta make a move first...can hunners be recruited right here tuh go after grose in record numbers...:D

[GaryP]

Well, I have a few ideas but need to get more hard info.

For starters, I'd be curious to see what the budget and revenue from licenses are for Ohio relative to MI and PA. Are we much worse off in that area or could we press the ODNR to see how they spend their money relative to the other 2 states.

At least here in NE Ohio, I don't think the ODNR has any real comprehensive management program for their wildlife areas. Every so often they'll cut a section for rabbit habitat or cut some areas for more pheasant put-and-take. Does the ODNR actually manage for deer and turkey? I doubt it, and those are their bread-and-butter species. Management efforts for other game species seem extraordinarily weak in my opinion.
If you go hunt on most any good size public land in MI you can find a variety of managed forest of differing ages, obviously managed by the DNR.

After they actually have a comprehensive plan, then they would have to enact it. It would then seem to me that they could solicit bids to timber sections of some of their state land and maybe even make some money off it.

The thing that bugs me about the ODNR is that they cry about decreasing #s of licenses sold, but they focus on encouraging youth hunting and ignore trying to manage their areas and bring in a wider variety of hunting. How many of us go up to MI for grouse/woodcock because things suck so bad down here? I'd easily go to southern Ohio but I don't because from what I've seen down there I'd really have to know the areas and probably wouldn't get many flushes even then.

Anybody out there know how the ODNR actually spends their money? Doesn't seem like it goes that much to help us!

[Lance]

Hey Gary,

Just wanted to let you know I'm hoping to have my grouse cover project together to post here soon. I'm going to the property this weekend or next to take pictures and do some more chainsaw work so I can get some of the Aspens that I'm cutting on the regeneration path this spring.

[Wildman18]

I linked off of Gary P's post and sent my one of many E-mails to the O. D. N. R. on the subject of upland game birds.





I am a avid hunter and fisherman. I also have a degree in Fish and Wildlife management from Hocking College.
I am e-mailing you for one highly just cause. That being the lack of interest that I feel is being put towards the management of our upland game birds. The decline in grouse #'s in the last 10 to 15 years have gone unnoticed or noticed without concern by the O.D.N.R.. Only now has the hunting season been shortened which in my opinion will have little to no effect on thing's. With my background and conversations with instructors and biologist that mostly all concur with one thing. That one thing is the lack of habitat and heavy predation. I have heard the excuses of the low price of wood lumber and other things. If steps are not taken, then my children will be asking me what a grouse, pheasant and a quail are. I am sure that the D.N.R. doesn't want that to happen but with out some sort of action other than shortening the hunting season. I will be sure that the outcome will be just that.
I many cases the release of quail and pheasant by privet land owners that have taken it upon themselves has produced fairly stable #'s On there property should give a glimmer of hope to us all.

All I am asking is that some of the money that I have spent over the 23 years. Whether it is some of the deer tag money, license money, or just tax money that I have given the state be legated to some sort of upland game bird restoration

Thank you




What do you think? If a few more letters of this nature are sent by a few more people. Do you think it would have any impact?

[GaryP]

Lance,

Sounds excellent. Enjoy and as I said I'll definitely look forward to seeing/discussing it.

Wildman,

Sounds good, it definitely helps. I think the key will be getting consistant pressure from multiple people in multiple ways. Unfortunately work has been hogging my time and there's still some research I need to do but once I take care of that I was thinking of posting results with a discussion of how to approach this whole thing. I agree with others on here that we should strive for a consistant message and certainly this forum would be good for that. Thanks for your help.

Gary

[Deehntr56]

I sent an email to Mr. Scott a short while ago, and here is his response.

I thought I would pass it on.


Hi John:

Thank you for your interest in Ohio’s wildlife and your kind words regarding the work of the Ohio Division of Wildlife.

As you may be aware, game bird populations are tied directly to habitat conditions – both quality and quantity impact their numbers and distribution. The agricultural landscape that used to support widespread and abundant pheasant populations has changed drastically. There are relatively few “odd areas” and fencerows, fields are much larger with more corn and soybeans, harvested fields are cleaner (less waste grain), herbicides control insects better, fewer livestock operations mean less acreage in pasture and hay while the hayfields that remain are cut more frequently during the nesting cycle – all this means that there is very little quality habitat remaining in the rural landscape, even when agriculture is the dominant land-use. Conservation programs within the federal farm bill provide some grassland set-aside acres but even these are less than ideal when emergency haying or grazing or “weed management” activities reduce wildlife benefits. Pheasants can be found in pockets of northern and western Ohio where enrollment in federal conservation programs is fairly high – CRP acres can be very good for pheasants once about 5% or more of the local landscape has safe nesting cover. However, high commodity prices due to rising fuel and fertilizer costs and demand for ethanol mean that more farmers are opting to plant every available acre instead of allowing some of their operation to remain idle and beneficial for grassland species like pheasants. The Division of Wildlife is actively engaged in shaping federal farm bill legislation and related policies and procedures that impact most of Ohio. With 95% or more of Ohio in private ownership, we must impact habitat on private lands through landscape-scale programs like the Conservation Reserve Program to have any chance to impact pheasants and other grassland bird populations at the state scale.

Likewise for ruffed grouse, we have been successful in seeing more of Ohio’s eastern and southern regions return to forested habitat since the 1950s; however, those initial reverting woodlands provided dense woody cover that benefited species like grouse. Today, even though we have more forested acres, the forests are more mature and less active forest management (clear-cutting / timber harvesting) is occurring so fewer acres of regenerating young forests are available for early successional species like grouse and woodcock. We continue to work with the Division of Forestry and the Wayne National Forest to promote active forest management, including harvesting of timber in a sustainable and responsible manner that will benefit all forest-dependent wildlife, including riffed grouse. It is hard to have a population-level effect when most forest cover, like agriculture & grasslands, is on private lands. We simply can’t cut enough of state-owned forests to keep habitat available for grouse, so we need all forest landowners to be actively engaged in managing their lands. We will continue to work with forest landowners, cooperative extension specialists, and other conservation organizations to promote healthy forests in Ohio.


The same land-use issues that make habitat management for pheasants and grouse so difficult have also aided in the recovery of other game populations (wild turkey, white-tailed deer, Canada geese). Unfortunately many of Ohio’s hunters have not had the thrill of quality pheasant and grouse hunting, like what might have been available to them 30-50 years ago but many of the hunters of that era never imagined what high quality deer & turkey hunting would exist today.

We’ll continue to do our best for all Ohio hunters and our valuable wildlife resources. Thanks for your support of hunting and wildlife conservation.



Dave Scott

Ohio Division of Wildlife

[Wildman18]

So they have given up? or did I read it wrong? That seems like an excuse they brought the turkey back and the deer and the goose so now it's Fu+K the rest. Did I read it wrong. How disappointing!!!!!!

I don't own large tracks of land. A lot of the land in south east Ohio is state and national Forest land. If it's not that then it is coal company land. Yes some of it is private. I'm sure they can do some thing to entice the land owners into helping. I just wish that some on in the ODNR would take it upon them self to make it their mission to revamp the upland game bird population.

[antiqucycle]

Driving thru the newest addition to brush creek(south), I noticed lots of Forest Restoration signs posted by the ODNR. To me it looked like professional logging company took out every tree worth its timber. I guess the ODNR made some money this winter.

[QuailTrap]

Wow! Mr. Scott's response to Deehntr56 pretty much sums the ODNR's thoughts on small game in Ohio. They are mainly concerned with deer, turkey, and Canada geese. Guess what, in order to hunt these game animals hunters need to BUY a special tag. I bet the DNR would be more concerned with the grouse population if for every bird we had to buy an additional $20 tag!
How much "management" do you think the DNR actually does concerning deer, turkey and Canada goose habitat?

[Wildman18]

NONE!!!!!!!!!!!! It's easy it's called reintroduction. Anything challenging would be asking to much.

[Deehntr56]

I would agree on the message I received.

I was HOPEING they had some plan, something of substance, to evaluate and help get a program in the right direction.

[GaryP]

Deehntr56,

Thanks for the post about the DNR response. In my mind a good part of the problem is these DNR guys like pulling the shovel out and throwing every excuse to hide the fact that it isn't a priority and the money really isn't available. They pulled these same arguements on me concerning grouse when I went to the open house this spring and after shooting every one down, the guy finally said to me (paraphrasing) "Look, we know what the problem is and we know what we can do about it (habitat management). The problem is we don't have the resources to do it and it isn't enough of a priority to the DNR to allocate the resources. He then said the best hope to acheive this is outside pressure making it a priority.

If all these DNR guys would stop shoveling and cut to the chase it would help focus the upland sportsman to apply some pressure and find a consistant voice.

As far as the pheasant, certainly there's truth to the arguement that habitat is not suitable to pheasant here in NE Ohio. But, I had a friend who lived in one of the rural areas up here and saw pheasant in the private corn fields right across the street. This was in geauga county which is rural but is not that far outside of cleveland and where my buddy lived was NOT dominated by farmland and nowhere near a release area. And, pheasant are surviving well in lower MI where they have the same farming practices and similar habitat. I've seen them along the edges of the interstate in the suburbs of Detroit myself. Hell, they have sustained populations of pheasant living in downtown Detroit! How do these DNR guys explain that? Is anyone doing some research on this? The lessons learned may enable more successful populations down here. Certainly the work the Pennsylvania is doing with pheasant populations will be very interesting no matter how it turns out.

As far as grouse, I've seen plenty of young growth private land around geauga county (for example) to hold grouse. The DNR should try and be part of the solution, not part of the problem. There's a handful of WA's up here with thousands of acres and you can't tell me that a good habitat management program on these areas WOULDN'T benefit the grouse population, even if only on a local level.

Anyways, thanks for sharing. It's always on my mind but seeing your efforts and their attitude will help me get going on them myself.

Gary

[Wildman18]

I am the kind of guy that is a do'er. Not just a talker.

My question is who do we talk to? To get the ball rolling. What can we do? I refuse to believe that there is nothing that can be done. I am open for suggestions. It is discouraging. The ODNR is a real LET DOWN.

[coonskinner]

sad to say but how many people hunt grouse...how many squirrel hunt or rabbit hunt any more or pheasant hunt...and then compare that to how many hunt deer only...with turks coming in second...i don't see the woods stormed by squirrel hunters ,grouse hunters...in fact in the last 5 years i've seen zero in all classes...and heard but a few shots from squirrel hunters...there is how the odnr ranks things...from higest interest to lowest,thats how the money gets sent to what it gets used for...i don't hunt any of that stuff myself...i mainly hunt deer...but i do think the odnr can leave the deer alone a few years...and concentrate on grouse,theres plenty of rabbits and squirrels...and they could concentrate also on pheasants and quail...ohios deer herd can hold its own with little help right now...i love what the odnr has done for deer hunting and turk hunting,i've seen it go from not to good for deer...non existant with turks to what it is today...but i have seen it go from great hunting to poor hunting or non existant hunting with pheasants ,quail and grouse...this is an "f" for our odnr when it comes to the birds...what are they doing,if anything...i will promise to bring this up every time i see them from now on...perhaps an email to wake them up to this...hopefully they hear a lot from others too...blaming predation won't help,killing a cat won't help...its just not that much...theres more chipmonks to be had...and i don't see that pop. dwindlling,cats probably kill them more than anything...its because theres no management for them and the fact not many hunt them...:D

[antiqucycle]

Actually they did too much for the Canada geese. the pests are everywhere ruining golf courses and apartment complexes.

as far as logging, with all the Amish up in Trumbull Geauga and Ashtabula Counties, I am surprised they are not loaded with grouse.