Manditory Bowhunter education???? [Archive] - Ohio Sportsman.com

Thunderflight@work

12-20-2002, 07:33 AM

I don't think it would make a difference. You'd still have people sleeping through the Saturday class and getting the minimal score to pass. Once he or she got the card they would be "Certified Bowhunters". The course will not change any one hunters up bringing or ethics.

The only way to correct slob newbie hunters is through leadership and mentoring. Next time you see that guy or gal buying a new bow, crossbow of gun try striking up a converstation. Talk to them about hunting and ethics. Who knows mabye you'll make a new friend or you might even get an invite to hunt a new property. Take your kids hunting. Take your kid's friends hunting too. When you do, make sure to explain why you don't tresspass, take "sound shots" or take more game that you are legally allowed.

You are the key to the future of hunting. Even if you only influence one person out of a hundred they you are on the right track.

Thunderflight

Stacker

12-20-2002, 07:49 AM

I took the state course in 1998 just because i felt it would be a bonus to have in my wallet when trying to obtain bowhunting tags in other states. the course is simple and straight forward for anyone with hunting experience and a few braincells. I help a friend procedd deer (roughly 1500 per season) and I will say without a doubt there are more clueless deer hunters than knowledgable ones out the these days. Deer com to us in all forms from undressed to partiallt skinned to half dressed, to rotted (because someone somewherer told the guy that he had to hang the deer for a week). Basic field preparation is taught in the course and I feel everyone should take it if not watch an informational video prior to obtaining any large game license so they have practical knowledge of where to start. Pride aside, it's just a good idea, takes an afternoon, and costs a couple bucks!

ShoreBoundOne

12-20-2002, 09:12 AM

I quote:

"without a doubt there are more clueless deer hunters than knowledgable ones out the these days"

This is the attitude thats putting a sour taste in my mouth...."everyone is clueless except me, my buddy, and Ted Nugent....and i am not so sure about my buddy".
Dweller, you and I have chatted before and i agree with you most the time....I know your heart is in the right place with this one...BUT,..i dont think ethics is something you can teach another adult...you CAN teach Laws and safety. Morals and ethics need to start young...thats what parenting is all about. As far as a special bowhunting course....since there is already a safety course required...maybe like someone else said, they could dedicate a couple hours to it. i dont think making it an additional requirement would help stop un-ethical hunting and would be another hurdle for the ethical ones.
My .02

Mitch

vc1111

12-20-2002, 10:45 AM

Thunderflight excellent post. Very well said.

This particular subject is always poorly defined when it is discussed. Allow me to explain...

When you discuss a "class" on bowhunting "education" what is the goal in specific terms? Is it safety? Then where does the mandate of safety end? If we are going to mandate safety, shouldn't the use of full body harnesses be mandated also? That is probably the single largest cause of injuries and death in bowhunting right?

What about the various climbing systems? Shouldn't we define and mandate what is safe in the way of tree stands and what is not? How about climbing steps and there installation? Wait! Aren't some trees safer than other to put a stand in? How high should we "allow" you to climb?

There is no end to what you could mandate by codified law in the name of safety.

Are we going to include a discussion of "ethics?" If so, what will be the parameters of such a discussion? And I will repeat what others have already said...you cannot mandate ethics, period...no more than you can madate morality to any meaningful or measurable degree. ======Here's an example: You shoot a big game animal, it runs onto the neighbors property, a property for which you do NOT have permission to hunt, and you know that you absolutely cannot get permission to hunt there. Do you track the animal and try to recover it anyway? I promise you that the answers from every hunter that considers himself "ethical" will vary widely.

One of the constants in hunting with any type of weapon is that there are too many "slobs" out there. TOO MANY guys are very quick to criticize others and essentially condemn them wholesale, while at the same time, they will tell you that they and their buddies would never do such things. That is damaging and unfair in my opinion.

Bowhunting safety course DO exist. If someone feels the need to take it, or feels that their kids should take it, it is available now. Those that do not need it, do not have to waste their time.

Lastly, bowhunting is not brain surgery. It is not that hard to do the right things and hunt safely. Most people that are not doing those things, will not. Taking a class will not make the "honest" or force them to hunt safely.

Yes, there are occasionally ill-prepared "instant hunters" out there, but they are a very very tiny percentage of the bowhunters in the field. They are usually not very successful when they try to hunt without practicing. They quickly learn
that the sport requires discipline and practice. At that point, they almost always start learning and practicing in earnest, or they gradually give it up.

The overwhelming majority of bowhunters are disciplined, dedicated sportsman. The average guy that wants an easy kill isn't going to pick up a pointy stick, he's going to purchase a firearm. There is nothing wrong with that either. Some people just don't want to mess with what seems like rather complicated equipment, or they cannot or do not want to invest the time.

I say leave things as they are.

Basementdweller

12-20-2002, 03:50 PM

vc1111... you are debating ethics and the law. Is it ethical to break a law? Is it ethical to break a law you disagree with?

It is against the law for you to do anything on private property that you do not own with out written permission period. If you trespass and recover a game animal is it an ethics, moral question or a legal question.

Is is ethical to shoot a deer if you run the risk of not being able to recover it because of trespassing laws??? I know alot of guys hunt 5 and 10 acre lots and there is no way they can recover the deer on their own property. So is it ethical to hunt it?

Is it ethical to send a new hunter into the woods without proper training? Since the family structure has pretty much broken down in the United States the state should mandate a basic training. Lets face it the guys going it the woods now do not have the benifit of grandfathers and fathers mentoring them for the most part. I know of a handful of 1st time hunters whose fathers did not hunt.

we can debate ethics and morality all day.

Lastly you are forgetting the crossbow guy. It is not a barrier to hunting. I want the horton wallyworld guy to at least have a clue entering the woods where I am hunting. It is my life after all.

I think as a percentage of the population hunter numbers are getting smaller.

How many more guys have to be killed during bow season before you get a clue?

lastly....I like to believe that the bowhunter is the supreme hunter. We do it better, longer and more efficently than our gun toting brethren. I would like it to remain that way.

Lance

12-20-2002, 04:07 PM

In many ways I'd love to see this happen but ireally don't think it will and I'm not sure it would be successful. If we're teaching laws and not ethics, probably better than 50% of the hunters out there have had a safety class at this point. It would be interesting to see some statistics on hunter age and experience as it relates to # of accidents in the woods. I wonder if it draws a parallell to turkey hunting accidents, they usually aren't the new hunters but the ones that have been in the woods 10-20 years. They think they can take some shortcuts because they are so confident in the "been there done that I know what I'm doing" mentality. Ethics is the part that needs taught but like mentioned above, saddly I'm not so sure that adults will let another adult teach them ethics.

Arrow 1

12-20-2002, 04:21 PM

vc1111,

The opportunity to learn more about your sport is not a barrier. It is as I said, an opportunity. I am for mandatory bowhunter education for all bowhunters and crossbow hunters in Ohio. And I have only one course in mind. The course offered by the National Bowhunter Education Foundation. Check out the web site at http://www.nbef.org. This course is already widely known and accepted throughout the USA and has been around for many years.

This course is more than just a safety course. Safety is part of it, but it also covers shot placement, blood trailing, analizing your arrow after the shot to determine exactly what part of the deer the arrow penetrated, and much much more. All of these are very important if you are going to bowhunt or crossbow hunt and do it ethically and succesfully. Anyone going to hunt deer in Ohio with bow or crossbow must know these basics before becoming a succesful bowhunter or crossbow hunter.

vc1111, I don't know if you bowhunt or crossbow hunt or if you do, how long you have done it. I'm not trying to slam you but it sounds to me like you have not done much of it or are just very mis-informed. Unfortunatly we have a lot of instant hunters out there during bow season in Ohio. This is due to the ever increasing popularity of the crossbow. literally you can go to the store in the morning, buy a crossbow, take it home and sight it in and be hunting with it that night. According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

zfish

12-20-2002, 06:51 PM

Quote : The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

I disagree with that comment. Yes the crossbow is becomming very popular among hunters there is not arguement there. With any piece of hunting equitment takes some skill and practice. I would say 90 to 95 % of bowhunters (including crossbow) take much time in sighting their bows in) I do not know anyone who has a crossbow who does not practice with it all the time. I have 2 crossbows and a compound and I spend more time with the crossbow.

Instead of praising all the good things about hunters we always focus on the bad. Sure its good to focus on the flaws but this is getting right back into a crossbow debate. Also yes Im sure there are more kills with a crossbow then a traditional but if you have noticed the limit in a lot of counties this year went up to 3 deer instead of 2. I dont see any problems with that at all the population is still rapidly growing.

Nut

12-20-2002, 07:21 PM

yep zfish we all need to unite . Support each other regardless of what our style of hunting is. I wouldnt mind taking a bow hunter course so I would get more hands on knowledge from an instructor. I also see if a course would become mandatory that the state then would impose a fee on people who bowhunt also. That would lead to more fees and more restrictions. The state is coming out with a new hunter's ed manual that is more suited to our state. Lets see what it is like ;)

MadCatter

12-20-2002, 07:26 PM

Anytime the word mandatory is used we are all losers, in this country were are entitled to certain rights, with these rights come certain risks. Are you people for taking classes on other things, we can take classes on boating safety, there are boating accidents all the time in the summer, are you yourself prepared to take these bow hunting courses. ... what about shot gun classes, muzzle loading classes, each requires different skills and knowledge. Are you prepared to know the distance of each round you fire .. the foot pounds of energy commonly needed to cleanly kill, what about the debate of small fast projectile over a big slow one that creates a larger hole. What about the burning rates of black power. Are you prepared to take classes on ethics of fishing, care of fish, litter. What about classes to learn how to repair your boat in case you are stranded ... people just died last week in fla. because of a simple malfunction. It is easy too have answers while you are perched on a high chair. But the simple fact is you just can't teach some one basic common sense. So do these people that you deem lacking in common sense somehow have less rights that you?:confused: :confused: . If you don't feel safe in the woods..... then wouldn't common sense tell you to stay out of the woods:confused: :confused:. We as sportsman have enough people telling us how and when to do something and enough people trying to steal our rights. But then again if we are all in class all the time, maybe the antis will have their way. we will be far too busy studying learning how to hunt or fish:confused: :confused: . I guess the bottom line I am trying to draw is people make mistakes, and trying to make everyone like you is just another mistake people make. The sad fact is that there are too many hunters in the woods today all crammed into one week of gun season, those that can't get a deer with a gun try to extend the season with a crossbow .. this leads to more people in the woods bow hunting than bow hunters would like. Why don't we try to end the over crowding by extending the gun season a week, this will get some of the gun hunters out of the woods with their crossbows, then the people who enjoy using crossbows and bows will have their time. Too many hunters also has a positive effect. It means that the sport is growing, and every year there is one more hunter that means there is one more person standing up for ALL of our rights. The are no real answers, classes help teach basics, but classrooms can't control how a person will react to outside forces such as cold, rain, adrenaline and over anxiousness. People have to take driving test and we all know that everyone is a perfectly safe driver now don't we.

vc1111

12-20-2002, 07:37 PM

I enjoy debating these types of idea because we all learn a thing or two.

Basement Dweller, you need to read my post again. I asked a series of questions that lead directly and most appropriately to a discussion of ethics and law. The crux of the matter is this: Where do we draw a line on “mandating” things?

Unless you’ve been “grand-fathered in” by having previous hunting experience, no one in Ohio can be licensed to hunt without taking an approved Hunter Safety Course. This thread is to discuss additional barriers specifically aimed at bow hunters. I have respectfully disagreed and stated the reasons why.

You state: “Lastly you are forgetting the crossbow guy. It is not a barrier to hunting. I want the horton wallyworld guy to at least have a clue entering the woods where I am hunting. It is my life after all.”

Now that makes sense to me. You obviously have an axe to grind with crossbow hunters, and you’d like to make it more difficult for them to hunt in the same woods with you.

“lastly....I like to believe that the bowhunter is the supreme hunter. We do it better, longer and more efficently than our gun toting brethren. I would like it to remain that way.”

Your motive then is not so much about safety, ethics, or the law for that matter…its about crossbows. You are not, in my opinion, addressing the issue from the prospective of fairness. Your slant is clearly aimed at crossbow hunters. Then why not just make it for only crossbow hunters? Why not lay all your cards on the table. The issue of crossbow is a non-issue to this archer. They are welcome in the field with me. The crossbow is legal in Ohio. End of debate.

Lastly, I have to call you on this one: “How many more guys have to be killed during bow season before you get a clue?”

First, and most importantly: If you cannot address me without getting personal perhaps you should refrain from such discussions. I came here to relax, learn things, and most importantly make friends. I hope you and I can become friends. Let’s play nice, OK?

Secondly, if there was any semblance of a problem with guys getting “killed during bow season,” we wouldn’t be having this conversation. The State of Ohio would have already mandated bow hunter safety. Please show me any definitive proof that hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands are even so much as injured, let alone killed, in Ohio to warrant a MANDATE. The incidence of bow hunters being killed IS remarkable for one simple reason…it is very, very rare, especially when measured against the number of hours spent in the field with bow in hand. I mean you no disrespect when I tell you that if you are truly seriously worried about being killed while bow hunting, then perhaps you should reconsider the sport altogether. It does involve tree stands and weapons of one sort or another. Your chances of being killed by falling from your tree stand are probably at least 10 times as great as being shot by the cross bow hunter that you are wont to condem. I’ve seen from several reputable sources that the average bow hunter has a 1 in 3 three chance of being injured or killed by falling while climbing up, hunting in, or climbing down from a tree stand. How about Mandatory Tree Stand Safety then?

Again I ask, where do we stop with this idea of mandating new hoops for hunters to jump through in the name of safety?

vc1111

12-20-2002, 08:30 PM

Arrow 1, the opportunity to learn more about my sport is already available from a tremendous variety of sources, besides NBEF course. If any hunter would like to take advantage of such opportunities, he is free to do so without having it mandated by law. Please explain to me why an “opportunity” should be mandated? Because some archers don’t like crossbows?

Let me ask you this and please answer honestly. Did you take the NBEF course before you hunted with a bow? I would be most surprised if you did. You would most certainly be the exception to the rule.

“The opportunity to learn more about your sport is not a barrier.” Agreed, not a barrier, until it is mandated by law. Then regardless of my expertise, or experience, I MUST cross that hurdle, that barrier between me and bow hunting. Let’s stop pretending that it is not a barrier. I happen to have great respect for the NBEF course, and if I decided I want to take it I can…at my convenience, thank you.

Arrow 1 you stated: “vc1111, I don't know if you bowhunt or crossbow hunt or if you do, how long you have done it. I'm not trying to slam you but it sounds to me like you have not done much of it or are just very mis-informed.”

Paleeeease. If I disagree with a mandated course, in addition to the one that is already required, then I must be either inexperienced or “very misinformed??????”

That sir, is a very, very weak argument at its very best, and a thinly veiled slam at its worst. I am 50 years old. I have been hunting since I was 14 years old. I have killed 21 deer in the last 5 seasons alone, mostly with the compound bow. I have never hunted with a crossbow, but I respect the right of Ohioans to use them if they wish. I happen to be well educated, have more than a rudimentary understand of law and the political process, and spend considerably more time enjoying the sport of hunting than the average guy that only gets out on weekends. There. Am I entitled to an opinion now?

Your bias against crossbows is crippling your ability to be objective and perhaps more importantly, your ability to be fair.

Lastly you state: “According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

And your point is? So what if crossbows are popular? They require a minimal amount of skill and practice? So what? Are you trying to say that since they are so easy to use, they mandate a safety and education class? Explain how that makes any sense at all.

“literally you can go to the store in the morning, buy a crossbow, take it home and sight it in and be hunting with it that night.”

So if we require the course, we can slow down (as in impede, or create barriers against) the raging popularity of crossbows?

I am very disappointed. I thought this thread was about mandating bow hunter education classes, even though we already have mandated Hunter Safety course requirements in place.

This is really about making it tougher for more crossbow hunters to join our ranks. Why didn’t you just say so?

Basementdweller

12-20-2002, 08:52 PM

Here is where I come from......I was raised on a farm and cut my teeth keeping the sparrow and pigeon population in check. At age 6 grandpa gave me a no name red fiberglass recurve and a fist full of wooden field point arrows. I bought my first bow a bear whitetail from the wiggs in fremont ohio at age 14. I used that bow Until I was 20 years old when I purchase my oneida strike eagle. I still have that bow and shoot it. Bout 3 or 4 years ago I bought a ten points crossbow, I was tired of being busted drawing.

That crossbow has more in common with a gun than a bow. It really is point and shoot. The problem with it is the way horton markets the darn things. They are loud, really loud. These uneducated people are taking shots out 40 yards with them. They really have no business doing it. the deer will jump the string. enough of that nonsense I dont want to talk about that stuff anymore.

I just purchased a new pse bow to hunt with again. I was getting kinda worried about the age on the oneida. the weapon makes no difference to me. Like I said it is about the woodcraft.

I have no ax to grind. I think the sales guy a buckeye said the sell twice as many crossbows as vertical bows.

zfish

12-20-2002, 08:52 PM

Okay guys common... No more slamming please. Everyone here is titled to their own opinion and the right to post it.. I dont believe I am the only one here that does not care to see one another get slammed so lets just drop it right now and get back to some good old debates. ;)

If any questions or problems please feel free to pm me or ask on here.

In Friendship
Mike aka Zfish

Aimrite

12-21-2002, 09:31 AM

Many states already mandate Bowhunters Ed. It is not a barrier for any of them only a Benifit.
It is a winwin for everybody and if you cant see that I .................................................

tpet96

12-21-2002, 12:33 PM

I look at it this way. 99.9% of those who have a hunting license have taken a hunter education course. You still have the nuts in the woods reguardless during hunting/bow season. What makes you think a mandantory bow course is going to take that 99.9% and make them 100% safe hunters? It won't, just like with a typical hunter education course. Until people use COMMON sense, it won't be safe out there.

mikenbow

12-21-2002, 04:29 PM

Man, many opinions on bows vs crossbows in this thread. To answer the question- no, I do not think mandatory bowhunting education is necessary.

Lundy43123

12-21-2002, 05:26 PM

Madcatter,

I agree with you that classes should not be a mandatory requirement however you brought up an interesting point. You asked if he was prepared to take shotgun and muzzleloader classes " are you prepared to know the distance of each round you fire, the foot pounds of energy commonly needed to cleanly kill?" My answer to you is yes, everyone that is an ethical hunter should absolutly know the ballistics of every round that they shoot and the downrange maintained energy of each round.

They should know this not because it is mandated by the ODNR or the government but because it is knowledge that you must have to make an ethical decision of shoot or don't shoot in any hunting situation.

How many hunters do you know that really know this information about shotgun slugs or muzzleloader rounds? What percentage of hunters in general have this knowledge do you think? What percentage of bowhunters know the true effective range and trajectory of thier arrows? How many crossbow hunters know that a modern crossbow sighted in at dead on at 20 yds is 21" low at 40 yds. Sadly I think we all know that the percentage is very low in all areas

Hunters shouldn't have to take a course to gain this knowledge, but one should be available to them to help them attain this knowledge. The Ohio safe hunting course teaches safety and that's it. The bowhunter education courses offered by the OBA teach safety and the ethics of bowhunting, from shot selection, to how to track your animal after the shot all the way to field dressing. I wish there was a similar education available for gunhunters to learn the capibilities of the guns they hunt with.

It is the hunters responsibility, he should require HIMSELF to have this knowledge. the pressure should come from within himself and from YOU and ME, not from another government requirement.

My opinion,
Kim

MadCatter

12-21-2002, 08:01 PM

Congrats to Lundy ... He gets the point, most true sportsman already know most of the answers that I posted. Most peope research the ammo they buy, try it in their gun long before the season. Why mandate a law to a person that is fully capable of teaching a class, it is a waste of time and valuable resourses. Who do you think is going to pay for everyone to take these classes. Who is going to provide the locations. Do you have any idea of the amount of people that would be trying to get into classes all at once, missing a season because of too many people and not enough places to go. So I guess its ok to raise the price of tags across the board to pay for instructors, class rooms, firing ranges, books, targets, back stops. I know someone will say it is worth any amount of money to safe one life, while I agree that is true, it is also true that anyone that cares a weapon into the field carries with it some responsibilty of his own. I think rather than mandatory laws, we as sportsman need to have more places to go where we can shoot and talk .. more shooting ranges where people that buy these bows, crossbows and guns could go to safely learn to use them. Lets move to make shooting more openly accessible to everyone, not just the select few that are lucky enough to live in the country. The best classes money can by take place on the firing range. Virtually everyone that buys a new bow or firearm is very eager to try it out, its a shame that for many the only real chance they get is in the field. I would love for someone to post some accident stats on bowhunting vs. gun hunting .. I have hunted with bows long guns and handguns. I would be eager to see just how the seasons stack up to safety.

Basementdweller

12-21-2002, 10:03 PM

I understand that the guys on this site are not typical hunters. We breath it....it is life to us.

I ran into a guy today at the wallyworld on romehillard rd columbus, looking through the close out xbow stuff. He was talking to his son and buying graphite bolts. he said "these bolts will be really accurate out to 40 or 50 yards and really hard on a buck" I was with my kids so I did say what I was really thinking. I did tell him that he really should limit his shots to 30 or less. He told me has kilt deer out to 60 yards with it. A blatant lie or brag, no idea. I hope he didnt do it.

So how do you address this clown who is passing less than steller ethics and technics on to his son? Another slob hunter in training???? What would you do or say? Ignore, Curse him, try to educate him????????????

I told him I usually limit my shoots to less than 20 yards and have not lost one yet. Have had a couple of guts shots but I did recover them. His reply was that I must not shoot much. Well he is right. I have shot twice this year...one harvest and once at a turkey (missed, killed a sapling) . I dont know.

I still havent seen any deer in my hunting areas since gun season. There were two sets of yearling twins I watched most of the summer and all fall. I hope they made it.

Basementdweller

12-21-2002, 10:08 PM

I dont live that far from a butcher that processes deer. It is amazing how much venison is wasted by either not field dressing or poor handling after the kill. He refuses to process them and just pitches them in the dumpster. Just interesting. I think that the knowledge has been lost somehow. Missed a generation or something.

Thunderflight

12-21-2002, 10:45 PM

Basementdweller,

He's got to be bragging. While I'm sure you can kill deer out to 60 yards with and crossbow I'd be willing to bet that's 60 of his own paces (actually 40-45 yards).

Your not going to reach everyone. If his kid hadn't been there he might have been more receptive. Just be glad he wasn't telling his son that they work great for "sound" shots. 8*)

Keep plugging away. Sooner or later someone will accept your help.

Thunderflight

vc1111

12-22-2002, 01:11 PM

Basementdweller, you've ducked all the hard questions. Same for Arrow1.

Basementdweller: "Please show me any definitive proof that hundreds and hundreds, if not thousands are even so much as injured, let alone killed, in Ohio to warrant a MANDATE."

Arrow1: "Let me ask you this and please answer honestly. Did you take the NBEF course before you hunted with a bow? I would be most surprised if you did. You would most certainly be the exception to the rule."

"Lastly you state: “According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

And your point is? So what if crossbows are popular? They require a minimal amount of skill and practice? So what? Are you trying to say that since they are so easy to use, they mandate a safety and education class? Explain how that makes any sense at all.

While I get the impression that you are both good guys, very ethical, and law-abiding hunters, I think that you should be willing to back up the things that you say when you are willing to stand up in a public forum and suggest changes that would affect all of us.

Arrow 1

12-22-2002, 08:04 PM

vc1111,

I have not been ducking your questions. This is the first time to recheck this thread for any responses.

Are you saying that you do not think that it is a good Idea for any new hunter to take a safety course? That they should only take it if they want to take it? You are turning people loose in the woods with deadly weapons. Some may not even have a clue as to the safe operation of the weapon. I think thinking like this is kin to saying to your kid, OK you are 16 years of age now get in that car and drive it , you don't need any instrtuctions, just go ahead and do it! That is just a recipe for disaster.

You asked if I had taken the NBEF course before I started bowhunting. No, I did not. I was not aware of the NBEF course when I started bowhunting. I wish I had known about it though. It would have reduced my learning curve by several years. I wish someone would have made me take it. Like I said before, The NBEF course is only a safety course in part. It covers all of the basics you need to know to succesfully shoot, track and tag a deer.

When I was 14 years old I got my first shotgun for Christmas. I started hunting with my dad then. This was my first year to hunt with a real weapon. I knew the state of Ohio offered a hunter safety course and I begged my parents to let me attend it. I saw it as an opportunity to learn more about guns and hunting. I learned more here than my dad ever taught me! It was not mandatory then and no one said I had to take it. I wanted to.

I did not single crossbow hunters out when I said they needed to take the bowhunter ed. course. Go back to my post and re-read it. You will see that I said that bowhunters and crossbow hunters should be required to take the course. I never said that opportunity should be mandated. Those are your words! Maybe hunting in general is not someones sport if they are not willing to learn the basics. After all, we are in the woods carrying deadly weapons, and we have been given the authority to take the life of a living animal. Both of these carry a great deal of responsibility.

You also asked about the statement I made about the crossbow becoming more popular every year and what my point was. I have been bowhunting for a long time in this state and I have met all kinds of hunters. I have formed general opinions about groups of hunters over the years through interacting with them. I am about to make a general statement here. As a general statement I know it does not apply to all people in that group. Just most of them. The crossbow attracts a certain type of hunter as all hunting weapons attract a certain group of people. The crossbow hunter in general is looking for success without putting much effort into the hunt. As many have allready said here, Wallmart this morning, woods tonight. The type of person that thinks this way is also willing to take a shortcut on safety and hunting knowledge of the game animal and weapon. This is why I think mandatory NBEF training is more important now than ever. Not just for crossbow hunters. Bowhunters too.

vc1111

12-22-2002, 08:45 PM

Thanks for informing me...I was getting the idea that you were ducking. I stand corrected.

You ask: "Are you saying that you do not think that it is a good Idea for any new hunter to take a safety course? That they should only take it if they want to take it?"

Nope, never even implied that. What I and several other have said is this: You cannot be licensed in Ohio without a Hunter SAFETY Course. That's enough. If you want to take the additional courses, fine. Just don't "require" (or mandate or whatever other word you feel is appropriate) others to have to take the course.

I strongly disagree with your generalization and stereotyping of guys that buy a crossbow.

"The crossbow hunter in general is looking for success without putting much effort into the hunt." ======(In other words:......"I don't like crossbows or and I have a low opinion of those that use them so let's make it harder for them to hunt by mandating another course.")

Pure conjecture! You have no backup for a statement like that whatsoever, other than your personal opinion. Your personal opinion is hardly grounds for changing the laws that would affect thousands. Show something concrete, some facts, anything to back up what your saying and I would be the first to listen and consider such an idea. I have hunted for decades. I have met as many, if not more hunters than the average guy and I have had seen nothing that is in any way in line with your remarks.

"The type of person that thinks this way is also willing to take a shortcut on safety and hunting knowledge of the game animal and weapon."

More conjecture coupled with a quantum leap in reasoning. I am sorry, but I think that such an idea is nonsense. I challenge you to prove such a thing with fact. If you cannot quickly and easily prove such a slanderous statement, then you should give serious consideration to rethinking you opinion.

There are tens of thousands of hunters in Ohio. Relatively very, very few injuries occur every year. The Hunters Safety Course addresses the issue nicely. It is quite enough for the rest of us. We seem to be doing just fine.

As for tracking and dressing game animals.....Tracking and gutting an animal "ain't" brain surgery. It simply does not justify the time or expense of mandated classroom course for anyone.

The fact is that you and a few others have repeatedly singled out hunters that choose a certain type of hunting implement as being reckless and unsafe. Not one of you can prove it, you just assert it and everyone is supposed to line up and take another mandated course?

You and the others that hate crossbows so much should hear how you sound when you say things like:

"You are turning people loose in the woods with deadly weapons. Some may not even have a clue as to the safe operation of the weapon."

You slur hunters in general with comments like that.

I must ask you one more question? Have you ever taken the basic Hunters Safety course that new hunters are required? I have. Even though I was "grandfathered" and not required I have taken it. It addressed all the issues that you would have bowhunters take again. The course I took covered guns and archery, treestands, shoot/don't shoot scenarios, etc. types of broadheads, types of bows, various treestands, tree stand safety, the care and storage of firearms, and on and on and on.

The law is in place to accomplish the objective that you have outlined. You are saying you want more to be REQUIRED. Why? Because you don't like crossbows, thus you don't like crossbow hunters.......a very poor argument at best, and another hoop for all bowhunters to jump through, all because of how you "feel."

Still waiting for an answer to these questions:

"Lastly you state: “According to the ODNR, crossbow kills in the state now excede bow and arrow kills. The crossbow is now more popular than the bow here in Ohio, and it is becoming more popular every year. A minimal amount of practice and shooting skill is needed to operate this weapon and that is the reason why.

And your point is? So what if crossbows are popular? They require a minimal amount of skill and practice? So what? Are you trying to say that since they are so easy to use, they mandate a safety and education class? Explain how that makes any sense at all."

And still waiting for Basementdweller to answer my question that followed his bold statements.

MadCatter

12-22-2002, 08:59 PM

You guys are beating a dead horse, what is the point of arguing .. There are several indisputable matters of fact ... The first being you are not going to change each others mind. Another fact is that if you put into effect a mandated Bowhunters education course ... What real good is it going to do, accidents are still going to happen, you are going to increase the number on non licensed hunters in the field. All you have to do is go over to some of these rural areas and get to know the people ... Alot of them don't even buy licenses, and hunt year round. We simply don't have enough law enforcement in the field to cover the problems and law breakers we have right now. That point can't be argued. So now you want bow hunters to go through the Hunters Ed. course then go to another Bowhunter Ed. course ... There are many that love the sport enough to do anything they need to do ... but there are many, mostly people that don't have the time or the financial resources to travel to classes. The only thing that posts like this do is give any anits out there that might be watching is give them ideas about our weakness' and place to start attacking. You know and I know there is an ever growing faction of people that don't want to see us hunt regardless of the method.
I am against mandating anything for several reasons, reason one being we are a free nations. hunderds of thousands of men and women died to give us are freedom and I for one am never going to give one inch of it up to anybody .. BOTTOMLINE
I posted earlier that I felt Crossbows were cheating... well I must have misunderstood the post, because I thought that it meant cheating the deer season by allowing gun hunters that didn't get a deer another chance to extend their season by using a crossbow that fires and aims like a gun ... lets face it anyone that can fire a gun can use a crossbow ... I don't feel that point can be argued... But I am never going to tell anyone they can't use something legal, and something they might enjoy. When you guys start limiting what someone else is doing by making mandatory rules you better be ready for someone to start mandating to you, cause once the ball gets rolling it never starts. Look for example at the Seat belt law ... first they said, you can't be pulled over for it, then they say. now we can pull you over just for that ... then give you a ticket ... Now not only can you be pulled over for it, but your car is now subject to search at the officers discretion. And guess what .. the seat belt laws were mandated by the Federal goverment, then blackmailed all the states into excepting it by threatenting to cut off goverment funding. I know that has nothing to do with bowhunting, but it has alot to do with someone or some organization getting their foot in your door. Because ... All these classes you want to fill, the instructors you want to train, the law enforcement you are going to need to hire, the resources you need to fill these classrooms and keep them running ... Well that money has to come from somewhere ..... I will close saying this .. Hunting is a sport, it is a big money sport for consumers to retailers. If you want classes then write the people that are making bows and crossbows and ask them to set up some ranges, and teaching facilities to get more and safer hunters interested in their products or even include and instructioal video with the purchase of their product this would surely be a good PR move for any major company. But why do you want to make every hunter in ohio pay for less than 1% of the hunters in the field that might benifit from training .... If a person is not smart enough on his own to not figure out that you don't shoot at anything that hasn't been clearly identified as game ... and is not smart enough to keep from shooting himself, you are not going to help this person.... I would like for anyone to give me one example that they know of if any human being has ever been denied a hunting license because he or she could not eventually pass the test. Just because you have a certificate from a hunting course does not make you a safe hunter, just like having a drivers license doesn't make you a safe driver:D :D :D I say take your fellow hunter aside offer them assistance if they will take it, and embrace the fact that they now are sportsman and that you have one more vote in your favor in the war against the anits ...;) ;) ;)

Good luck to all, and most improtantly besafe

vc1111

12-22-2002, 09:15 PM

Madcatter I agree with everything you posted except the dead horse part.

It is this type of dialogue that is need to reveal the agenda of those that propose change. I think that the agenda of this thread has been exposed and revealed to be unfounded. That is a good thing.

Everyone learns from the process.

I admire the part of your post about more and more government. You are right on the money with that. We must be careful what we ask for from any level of government. You nearly always get way more than you bargained for.

Arrow 1

12-23-2002, 12:37 AM

vc1111,

Apparently you are not reading what I am writing.I said that the NBEF class should be required for bowhunters and crossbow hunters. I did not single out the crossbow hunters on this issue.

I am offering you my opinion here. what is it that you want me to prove to you? Like I said, my opinion has been formed through interaction with these diferent groups. If you can show me something that says my opinion is wrong I will consider reviewing it. But in reallity I think you are just offering your opinion too.

You seem to have a habit of taking my words and translating them into your words that mean something else. When I said that crossbow hunters are looking for success without putting much effort into it how does that translate into I don't like crossbows or have a low opinion of the ones who use them. So lets make it harder for them by mandating another course. I think you are having a hard time comprehending what I am typing here. I will say it again. the course should be mandatory for bowhunters and crossbow hunters. You are the one singling the crossbow hunters out of the equasion. I'm getting the feeling that you are not worried about the bowhunters passing the course but your worried that the crossbow hunters could not pass it or would just say the hell with it . It is too much work so I just won't crossbow hunt! Hows that for putting words in your mouth?

No, I have not taken the state safety course lately. Have you ever taken the NBEF course in your life?

You want facts? here is a Readers Digest version of a factual story that happened to me while bowhunting. I shot a deer on private land. I ran into some crossbow hunters while tracking the deer and told them what I was doing. Uninvited, they get a crossbow out of the truck and begin to look for my deer that I was tracking. And they were tresspassing to boot. You might think that was a fluke thing but it was not. Because a few years prior to that on a different farm, the same thing happened to me with a different crossbow hunter. So let's see what are the facts.

Fact- On two different occasions crossbow hunters were trying to find the deer that I shot before I could find it.

Fact- On one occasion a small group of crossbow hunters was willing to tresspass to tag a deer that was being activly tracked by me.

Fact- Only a lazy slob hunter would pull that kind of stunt on a fellow hunter. Or do you not agree?

Fact- These guys were willing to do anything to tag a deer even if they had to butt in on someone elses blood trail.

I could tell you story after story about how different crossbow hunters have shot more than 1 buck a year or how they have proudly broke one game law after another. Like I said, the crossbow attracts a certain type of hunter and
in general this is the type of hunter they attract. The ones that want to take a short cut. And like I said before, the term in general means most, not all.

You made the remark "Tracking and gutting ain't brain surgery" I agree about the gutting but the tracking is very important. Mortally wounded animals can easily be lost due to poor tracking.

Do you not think your bow is a deadly weapon? I know mine is. I don't think I would like to see any hunter in the woods that it unfamiliar or unsure of his weapon. How is that a slur to hunters in general?

As for your last big long question, I already answered that in my last post so just re-read that.

I really don't know how you want me to present facts to you. It's not like I have been taking notes over the years. I just know that a large percentage of crossbow hunters picked that weapon because it is quick to set up, requires no more practice than a gun to kill a deer at 20 yards. To sum it up, It is a shortcut weapon to a deer during bow season, which in my past dealings with crossbow hunters in and out of the field is a train of thought that says tag that deer it does not matter how.

Both of the hunters killed in Ohio this year were killed with crossbows. Don't you think that says something?

flathunter

12-23-2002, 01:02 AM

Not to stir the pot mind you.

However what is wrong with success without putting alot of effort into it?????..I hunt with a crossbow because I dont like to or have the time to pracitce with a compound, and I would not hunt an animal if I did not have confidence in my shooting ability..The Crossbow offers me that..The Horton I purchased has one sight-pin, and was dead on out of the box at 20yds....I will not shoot at a deer farther than 25yds away.

To be considered a bowhunter why must one have to shoot 300-arrows a week??????

It is called bow-hunting, not bowshooting-practicing...And I enjoy the bow season with my Cross-bow..And I hope we can all live in harmony and continue to enjoy the fine whitetail hunting Ohio has to offer:)

Lundy43123

12-23-2002, 08:15 AM

arrow1,

With all due respect.

We can all recount stories of less than ethical hunters in all groups of hunters. I have many sad stories that I could share about conventional bowhunters, even some stick and string guys.

I share your frustration. My frustration centers on the man, not his weapon.

Jack,

In some eye's, if you shoot 300 arrows a week at a target your a bowhunter. If you shoot 300 arrows a week at deer your a crossbow hunter:D

have a good day all,

Kim

vc1111

12-23-2002, 10:59 AM

"Both of the hunters killed in Ohio this year were killed with crossbows. Don't you think that says something?"

An empirical study of two? No. It really says nothing whatsoever. That question bespeaks your reasoning on this issue. You see what you want to see, you read into the use of crossbow hunters, what you feel about the device itself. One could just as easily argue that hunting in Ohio is more dangerous than hunting in another state that also allows crossbows, but had no accidents in the same time period. Another quantum leap in reasoning.

Arrow1, I think we'll agree to disagree.

There are no hard statistics to back up what you are saying. If they are out there to prove the need, please post them. Otherwise, this is all conjecture and your personal war stories from your days in the field.

As to the NBEF course, I have already told you that the Hunters Safety Course addresses your worries and does so in spades. All new hunters are required to take it.

I consider the foundation of your ideas to be without merit, but obviously your personal experience has not been good. I understand that. We cannot begin to change laws because of the experiences of a few. The laws against such things as you cited in the post above are already in place.

"I could tell you story after story about how different crossbow hunters have shot more than 1 buck a year or how they have proudly broke one game law after another. Like I said, the crossbow attracts a certain type of hunter and
in general this is the type of hunter they attract. The ones that want to take a short cut. And like I said before, the term in general means most, not all."

I would love to discuss this more with you sometime. For instance, are 20 gauge shotgun owners more ethical and righteous than 12 gauge owners? Are rifle hunters "a certain type" too, or does it depend on the caliber? Maybe rifles with open sights are for the righteous, and the guys that employ scopes are "the ones that want to take a short cut?" Or maybe these "types" are okay, but when they choose a bow, some type of complex transformation takes place?

How about Browns fans vs Steelers fans? Wait, we better not go there. LOL. Just kidding.

Thanks for the debate on this. I enjoyed it.

You seem like a good guy, and I know you mean what you say, we just don't see things the same way on this issue. I have enjoyed discussing it with you very much.

Basementdweller

12-23-2002, 12:34 PM

That is incorrect...

One was killed with a crossbow in mcconnelsville. father killed his son.

One in hocking county with a compound bow. I know the rumors I called the Hocking county sheriff and asked and they said it was a compound not a crossbow.

When I started this thread it was merely get feed back not all of this personal attack nonse.

vc1111 lighten up. At least quote me correctly.

vc1111

12-23-2002, 03:57 PM

I did not misquote you.

Here's what you asked:

"How many more guys have to be killed during bow season before you get a clue?"

...as though such anomalies require new laws...

Again I ask for stats to prove that there is any semblance of a problem.

Two accidents out of ten of thousands of hunters? Perhaps hundreds of thousands of hours in the field and only two accidents in the entire state of Ohio? Sounds like were maintaining a very, very admirable safety record relative to the ordinary inherent risk involved.

The only problem that is apparent is that you guys don't like crossbows or the people that use them.

Perhaps if you truly feel that endangered in the field you might try a safer sport...something that does not involve pointy things.:D

Thank you for your response. This has been an interesting thread, Basementdweller.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.