Controling mature bucks in a area..??

[fork horn]

What do you think..?? I Believe it can be done.. Here is why..

I hunt a lot of small 20 -60 acre properties up here in Michigan.. Most of the places I hunt now out of state are mid range in size 200 average..

I want to talk about small hunting lands.. Can you consistenly kill mature bucks on small properties..?? I think yes.. On every small property..? NO.

BUT... I feel that if you have mature bucks that spend some time on or at least pass through your land.. than you CAN keep them.. at least most of the time during day light hours.. I hunt alot of these small properties. I see and kill a lot of bucks on them the niaghbors never see why..?? I manage the older bucks in that area.. You may laugh at this... but I think I do.. Up here in some places we have over 100 deer per square mile some places maybe more. Can I manage that deer herd with three doe tags and 20 acres..? NO..!! But I can set my property up so it has all the deer need... food, water & cover / security.. then and this is so important .. HUNT it in a way the deer think no one is there.. it is a safe zone.. in a war zone..

We all know mature Bucks are masters of servivel. Right.! I feel if you give him a place he feels he can servive you've got him.. He will go there when there is trouble.. There will always be some does there so he will have some ladies... Now, will you lose a buck now and then to a niaghbor next door or a mile down the road..YES. But I think you will get more than your share.. There are some consultants out there that want to talk about food plots (important yes) or "Buck Beds"..LOL. I have several small bedding areas and several small food plots on each of these little spots.. But where I think most hunters go wrong is by hunting hard not smart or playing with video cameras in the summer disturbing bucks or mess'n around going in and out getting cards from scouting cameras.. it is not worth it. I'll take my pictures the day I shoot him.. if he knows your after him you will never get him.. How you hunt and how much human activity / scent/ disturbance... is the main factor in my view.. on small properties. If you push a buck on a 500 acre farm he'll run to the next wood lot.. if you push him off 20 acres he's gone..

When I talk management on small properties I think "Land Management" and if you have all of the pices set up right "Mature Buck Management".. not total deer herd Management... that is hard to do no matter how much land you have.. if you only get a hand full of tags each year..

Just a thought.. am I crazy..?? I don't know.. it seems to be working for me where ever I hunt in the Midwest and for my clients in 8 states.. If nothing ells I am having alot of fun play'n in the woods.. ;)

[trekker]

I like tater tots.

[bowhunter1023]

What do you think..?? I Believe it can be done.. Here is why..

I hunt a lot of small 20 -60 acre properties up here in Michigan.. Most of the places I hunt now out of state are mid range in size 200 average..

I want to talk about small hunting lands.. Can you consistenly kill mature bucks on small properties..?? I think yes.. On every small property..? NO.



Well what do you want me to answer? Can you control mature bucks? Or, can you consistently kill mature bucks on small properties? There is not correlation between the two if you ask. The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question is yes.

I figure you know more about this game than I do. But I'm learning. One thing I have picked up so far is you are pretty quick to pat yourself on the back and assume that what works for you in Michigan, will work for me in Washington County, Ohio. I may be able to take portions of what you do and apply it here, but our deer are different. Yes, leaving mature bucks alone will encourage them to stay on your land. But that is not enough. If the habitat doesn't encourage them to stay as well, then it will leave you grasping at straws.

A mature buck is a special creature. Anyone who thinks they can CONTROL one is an idiot. You may be able to manipulate and influence him through habitat improvement and limited human intrusion, but you will never control him. And you certainly cannot force them to be in the same area every year. This is why there is no correlation between your two questions. I believe you can kill mature bucks on small properties on a consistent basis. But here is what it takes...

You need to make that property the most attractive acreage within an entire square mile if possible. That means your 10 acres is the best 10 out of the 640 acres. If you truly have the best acreage, the dominant buck will find it because the does will find it. This will be are critical portion of his home range which will most likely cover at least that 640 acres. So given you are hunter enough to harvest him, you leave a void. That will be filled by another buck the following year. Essentially you create a revolving door of mature, dominant bucks within your small parcel. This has nothing to do with you controlling them. It is simply a manipulation of their environment in hopes of bettering our chances. That is all we can really do as managers…

[Patriot1]

can you control mature bucks? no, but you can make your land more appealing to them by providing a same haven for them away from pressure and with good cover and/or food.

[CritterGitter]

Maybe influencing them or encouraging them are better ways to put it? They aren't robots! lol :biggrin:

Kyle

[Bawana]

There are so many variables in the whole mix. This time of year mature bucks are going to be close to food. We have large fields of corn still standing because a lot of farmers don't have storage facilities available. If my property is a sanctuary, but it's 1/2 mile from the corn, it's going to be pretty bleak right now. Each property is unique in where it is and what it can provide the deer. Granted it all comes down to food, water, and shelter (security). I really believe a lot of mature bucks may have a small core range (20-50 acres), but that the core range will move depending on the season and activity around it. Right now I can take you to two standing cornfields within 1 mile of my property, and two bean fields that were picked, but a lot of beans are on the ground and a picked cornfield. Where do you think the majority of the deer will be? and they won't be walking 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile every day to get to those fields.

[fork horn]

[quote=bowhunter1023;234752]Well what do you want me to answer? Can you control mature bucks? Or, can you consistently kill mature bucks on small properties? There is not correlation between the two if you ask. The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question is yes.

"Bowhunter" I see what you are saying.. and your points are good ones... Where we will part at the fork is.. Where you say there is no corrlatin between the two.. OK you say .. Oh your techniques may work up there in MIchigan but not down here in Ohio.. I disagree.. I my self have shot 3 bucks in Ohio 2 from public land 1 from privet ground. I have set up properties in Holmes, Coshocton, Fulton, willams, Defiance and Lawrence counties.. every one is happy so far.

I have set up hunting properties in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Kentuckey, Illinois, Wisconson, Iowa, and Missouri.. I have not had anyone tell me they where unhappy. Most have killed some very big bucks after I came.. So I think my techniques will work all over the Midwest....


I will go back to the 16 acre place I hunt in Michigan.. It is an old farm place.. The family sold off the big fields and kept 16 acres. I have hunted here since I was 5 years old with a bb gun.. There was not always many deer there... never big bucks.. I have cut many and planted many trees on this land made 4 small bedding areas.. six small food plots.. There is an old brick silo behind the house.. I can climb up and sit in the top of it and with binos I can see the whole place... I can keep one mature buck on this place most years and one 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 they will spend the hole year there.. I watch them and several smaller bucks all summer feeding in the small polts then hed out to the big been fields just after dark.. in summer... is the only time I will glass them off that land in day light.. The bucks winter there it has the best food and least disturbed cover..( no Four wheelers or snow mobiles running around..) I have sets of sheds from every buck killed there.. they stay there most of the time I have seen them at all times of the year.. I do not hunt this spot the first two days of gun season.. for fear of running deer to their death you couldn't leave if you got in there. This year I had 63 deer that I could count on that 16 acers 2nd day of the Michigan gun season..I think in some ways if your properties have bad hunters around them it is easier to keep mature deer on your land. They will always go where they feel safe..

On the land I hunt in Iowa for example there is not even close to the same hinting pressure and the bucks leave more often in day light.. But the good part is if you drive around Iowa with 6 piont in your truck you may get stoned to death..lol (Ok well you will get laughed at for sure.. ) NOT the case here in Michigan. I have watched mature bucks 4 1/2 or older in many states act as though they have little intrest in does only to join them just at dark.. I have seen does in Michigan act like Hen turkeys and go the buck so he does not have to leave cover I watched it for 7 hours last year and on two occasions this season as one doe after another came got bread or visited and left.. me sitting there out of range with abow in my hand.. I wounder how much that goes on..?? The the whitetail will adapt they always have,. I have seen it with my own two eyes.. I have more of a problem keeping 1 1/2 year old bucks on my small properties.. Than I do older bucks. The younger bucks do not know the consequnces for leaving like the mature bucks do.. I will lose a mature buck every 5 years or so to a naighbor .. but I lose 3 or 4 year and a half old bucks every yaer.. if they live to their second year.. they try to stay where it is safe when they are 2 1/2 or older... and all hell brakes loose. That is what I am seeing all over the Midwest even Ohio.

Everyone..... There was a time when poeple thought the world was flat and that man could not fly.. keep an open mind.. and we will all be better off.

[mrex]

Well what do you want me to answer? Can you control mature bucks? Or, can you consistently kill mature bucks on small properties? There is not correlation between the two if you ask. The answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question is yes.

I figure you know more about this game than I do. But I'm learning. One thing I have picked up so far is you are pretty quick to pat yourself on the back and assume that what works for you in Michigan, will work for me in Washington County, Ohio. I may be able to take portions of what you do and apply it here, but our deer are different. Yes, leaving mature bucks alone will encourage them to stay on your land. But that is not enough. If the habitat doesn't encourage them to stay as well, then it will leave you grasping at straws.

A mature buck is a special creature. Anyone who thinks they can CONTROL one is an idiot. You may be able to manipulate and influence him through habitat improvement and limited human intrusion, but you will never control him. And you certainly cannot force them to be in the same area every year. This is why there is no correlation between your two questions. I believe you can kill mature bucks on small properties on a consistent basis. But here is what it takes...

You need to make that property the most attractive acreage within an entire square mile if possible. That means your 10 acres is the best 10 out of the 640 acres. If you truly have the best acreage, the dominant buck will find it because the does will find it. This will be are critical portion of his home range which will most likely cover at least that 640 acres. So given you are hunter enough to harvest him, you leave a void. That will be filled by another buck the following year. Essentially you create a revolving door of mature, dominant bucks within your small parcel. This has nothing to do with you controlling them. It is simply a manipulation of their environment in hopes of bettering our chances. That is all we can really do as managers…

You are a very bright young man. A quick study!

[mrex]

There are so many variables in the whole mix. This time of year mature bucks are going to be close to food. We have large fields of corn still standing because a lot of farmers don't have storage facilities available. If my property is a sanctuary, but it's 1/2 mile from the corn, it's going to be pretty bleak right now. Each property is unique in where it is and what it can provide the deer. Granted it all comes down to food, water, and shelter (security). I really believe a lot of mature bucks may have a small core range (20-50 acres), but that the core range will move depending on the season and activity around it. Right now I can take you to two standing cornfields within 1 mile of my property, and two bean fields that were picked, but a lot of beans are on the ground and a picked cornfield. Where do you think the majority of the deer will be? and they won't be walking 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile every day to get to those fields.


BINGO!

[mrex]

What do you think..??I think you're trying, in vain, to put a simple spin on a very complex topic. .... You may laugh at this...You may be right on this one. But where I think most hunters go wrong is by hunting hard not smart I would agree with this somewhat.or playing with video cameras in the summer disturbing bucks or mess'n around going in and out getting cards from scouting cameras.. it is not worth it.I disagree with this in most instances. .. if he knows your after him you will never get him..That's a pretty broad statement. I've killed a few that I believe knew I was after them. How you hunt and how much human activity / scent/ disturbance... is the main factor in my view.. on small properties.I agree, on any size property. If you push a buck on a 500 acre farm he'll run to the next wood lot.. if you push him off 20 acres he's gone..Depends on the time of year.

When I talk management on small properties I think "Land Management" and if you have all of the pices set up right "Mature Buck Management".. not total deer herd Management... that is hard to do no matter how much land you have.. if you only get a hand full of tags each year..Again, management is a "subjective" term

Just a thought.. am I crazy..?? "Crazy" is also a subjective term.I don't know.. it seems to be working for me where ever I hunt in the Midwest and for my clients in 8 states.. If nothing ells I am having alot of fun play'n in the woods.. ;)

Tom - There is no "one size fits all" or even "most" in the whitetails world.

[fork horn]

Tom - There is no "one size fits all" or even "most" in the whitetails world.

Mike please read my posts.. at what point did I ever say every property is the same.. or that I set every property up the same way.. I think what I siad was the first and most important thing is to figure out how to hunt the property with out disturbing deer.. then make habitat changes to make your setups even better.. it works I know it does..

Hey you don't have to agree with me Mike, I don't mind at all. But I have killed bucks in 5 states with a bow on public land.. and many more off privet.. I don't need you to agree with me to feel as though I am someone or need some kind of Mike Rex seal of aproval. I have 100's of happy clients all over the Midwest sending me pictures of the bucks they shot after having me out.. That is why I set up hunting land not to be famous.. it is to help other hunters have success like I have had.. it is a system not a gimmick. It works I only need to look at the wall of my den and the photo elbums full of my clients pitures..

I came to this forum sent by a client of mine to talk with and help other hunters.. I have never mentioned the name of my business or web site.. I get a lot of privet messages from forum users with questions they wont ask in a post for fear of being shot down by others for asking.. what a shame..

Mike... good luck to you I hope you kill a monster every year.. I hope all of the hunters on this forum do. I am not here for a spot light just to help.. The only reason I talk about what I do for a living.. is I think it helps others know that there is some experience in how I came up with my suggestions.. Not to try to sound smarter or better than anyone..

This is the second time you've tryed to make someone feel dumb because you have a different "opinon" than they do.. :confused: hey that is OK now I know a little more a bout you.. good luck to you shoot strate..

[mrex]

hey that is OK now I know a little more a bout you.. good luck to you shoot strate..

I have been doing land management consulting for over 20 years now.. I have set up land form UP of Michigan to Kentuckey from east Ohio to Iowa.....;)


There are consultants out there.. guys who can help you.. A good consultant can show how to save alot of money and time in the long run save you lots of hard learned lessons..


Don Higgins of Illinois and I will have a booth at the Deer & Turkey expo in Columbus. Anyone who wants to talk Land management, wild life habitat.. or deer hunting just stop by and say hi... Tom Mensard

Article 9 of the Ohiosportsman forum rules:

9. Free advertising is not permitted on these forums. Our paid advertisers pay for the right to sell their products and services here. See http://wwww.igreatlakes.com/ads.htm for more information.

And we now know a little more about you.

Man you Michigan guys bruise easy.;)

PS - read what the other forum members had to say.

[mrex]

I came to this forum sent by a client of mine to talk with and help other hunters.. I have never mentioned the name of my business or web site.. I get a lot of privet messages from forum users with questions they wont ask in a post for fear of being shot down by others for asking.. what a shame..

Tom - You made your first post on this forum 2 weeks ago. Since that time, you've made a total of 17. Here are a few excerpts:

Hi , I set up hunting land for a living.. ..

Hi, I set up hunting properties for a living. .

Stop by my booth @ the Ohio deer & turkey expo .

Hi, I don't claim to know everything but.. I do set up hunitng properties for a living.... stop by my land manamgement booth in Columbus @ the deer & turkey expo we can talk in person.

From a hunting land management consultants point of veiw.... I have been getting them from Higgins Tree Farm in Illinois. They will ship them right to your door.. give them a try.. Give Don a call and talk with him 217 - 752 - 6829-- or www.higginstrees.com (http://www.higginstrees.com)Is this the same guy you're sharing the booth with at the expo?

.. Higgins Tree Farm sells the tubes by them selves I would buy them to put on the pears they are worth it...same guy?

I have done hunting land management consulting now for over 20 years in 8 states. .. I will have a booth down in Columbus in march stop by and we can talk some more . Tom Mesnard


I have been doing land management consulting for over 20 years now.. I have set up land form UP of Michigan to Kentuckey from east Ohio to Iowa.... Don Higgins of Illinois and I will have a booth at the Deer & Turkey expo in Columbus. Anyone who wants to talk Land management, wild life habitat.. or deer hunting just stop by and say hi... Tom Mensard

I have been doing consulting now for over 20 years...

[buckster]

Can't wait to get to the deer and turkey expo! this year
He must be some dude.

[fork horn]

Like I said..... I never said the name of my business.. never gave a web site.. I don't see it in any of the quotes you just put up. I just told folks what I do and for how long I have been dong it.. So they would know.. I have been setting up properties and helping other hunters for a long time... in many states in the Midwest...

I did say I would be at the Ohio show. I have had a booth or been in a booth there for 4 years now... I was asked in a message if I would be attending any shows in Ohio so I posted that I would be..

I am not the guy/guys getting puffy chested because someone other than the guys in your click.. are posting and trying to help other hunters in your state... Again it is not about me that is not how I do business.. I like to teach other hunters and help people who like to improve habitat on their hunting land how I do it and how to come up with there own ideas.. I tell them there are many ways to kill big bucks. NOT just the "Mike Rex" way. I am starting to see why the most hunters I have seen on veiwing the whitetail hunting part of this forum is like 17 people.. When you go to ohters around the Midwest and see over 80. At first there was some good conversation going on... till I made the mistake of trying to help a guy who's has the only opinon that matters..

Good luck to you..

[TheCream]

Hmmmm, I just read an article a few days ago in Deer and Deer Hunting titled: "Keeping Big Bucks on Small Farms." According to their experts, there is pretty much no way to always keep a buck on your place no matter what the size. I think I will side with them on this issue!

On the other hand, I hear this works wonders:

http://www.floridahabitat.org/picture-gallery/SuncoastPasco5HighFence.jpg/image_preview

[mrex]

Like I said..... I never said the name of my business.. never gave a web site.. I don't see it in any of the quotes you just put up. I just told folks what I do and for how long I have been dong it.. So they would know.. I have been setting up properties and helping other hunters for a long time... in many states in the Midwest... and then you repeatedly invite them to "visit your booth" at the expo.

I did say I would be at the Ohio show. I have had a booth or been in a booth there for 4 years now... I was asked in a message if I would be attending any shows in Ohio so I posted that I would be..five times

I am not the guy/guys getting puffy chested "Hey, look at me, I killed all these bucks on 16 acres. This could be you. I have 8 zillion smiling customers. There are consultants out there that can help you. Stop by my booth at the expo. because someone other than the guys in your click.. are posting and trying to help other hunters in your state... Again it is not about me that is not how I do business.. I like to teach other hunters and help people who like to improve habitat on their hunting land how I do it and how to come up with there own ideas.. I tell them there are many ways to kill big bucks. NOT just the "Mike Rex" way. I am starting to see why the most hunters I have seen on veiwing the whitetail hunting part of this forum is like 17 people.. When you go to ohters around the Midwest and see over 80. At first there was some good conversation going on... till I made the mistake of trying to help a guy who's has the only opinon that matters..

Good luck to you..
My first point is:

Article 9 of the Ohiosportsman forum rules:

9. Free advertising is not permitted on these forums. Our paid advertisers pay for the right to sell their products and services here. See http://wwww.igreatlakes.com/ads.htm for more information.

I assume you're paying money for that booth space at the expo. Will you be there just to spread the gospel or are you hoping to gain a few more smiling clients?

My second point is:

I disagree with some of what you have written. Most of what you've said is probably accurate. Being a consultant myself, I think your "salesman's pitch" is a little strong. If you're that good at it, the customers will seek you out.

"till I made the mistake of trying to help a guy who's has the only opinon that matters.." This must be true as you seem to be skipping over what everyone else has to say.

[CritterGitter]

Forkhorn,

You are more than welcome to post your opinion on this board. I think it is great that you have done so. However, some folks are going to disagree with you. That happens on all forum boards. Also, you mentioned killing bucks on public land and I am not sure how that relates to your opinion about controlling mature bucks? You can't manage public land unless you work for a state agency so far as I know. So, how did you control the bucks you got on public land? I'm just curious.

It sounds as though you are an accomplished hunter. We certainly value your thoughts about hunting deer and habitat improvement. I encourage you to continue to share your knowledge. Though, others are welcome to share their thoughts as well. It't the nature of the beast.

Kyle

[trekker]

It would appear that most hunters on this forum have complete confidence in their ability to look at a peice of land, and select prime stand locations as well as optimal spots for food plots and bedding areas. Perhaps you and ol Don would be better off to continue soliciting in the hunting meccas of Chicago and Detroit City.

[DV1]

I am not the guy/guys getting puffy chested because someone other than the guys in your click.. are posting and trying to help other hunters in your state... Again it is not about me that is not how I do business..
Admittedly, I haven't read all of your posts, only those on this thread, but it seems everything on this thread is about you, and you puffing your chest out about how great you and your hunting/land management system is.

People are going to disagree based on their experiences, your opinion and experiences aren't the only ones that matter. Just from reading this, I would suggest you try being a little open-minded and try a little humility. I can promise you your tactics will not work on lands I hunt, and you cannot "control" mature deer as well as you think, so don't be too sure of yourself...confidence is a good thing, arrogance is not. I apologize if I'm wrong about you, but from reading this topic, it's the impression you give of yourself.


I tell them there are many ways to kill big bucks. NOT just the "Mike Rex" way.

don't need you to agree with me to feel as though I am someone or need some kind of Mike Rex seal of aproval.


Did something happen on another thread I missed because I didn't see any reason on this one for you to pick at this guy so much. What gives?

[jackalope]

What wrong Mrex? Every time this guy posts a informational post about his point of view you feel the need to chime in and try to belittle his opinion. this time you're trying to slant the conversation into accusations of advertising. Offering your opinion in a constructive manner is fine, but you don't have to act like a pompous know it all when offering a diverse opinion.

I know I can be the king of facetious comments, especially towards you. Heck this time I was going to post a picture of two old toms sparing. because this kind of reminds me of how an old tom gets when he sees a new long beard hanging around his flock....

Get over yourself and keep posting good information. just leave the big head out of it. :rolleyes:

[mrex]

Did something happen on another thread I missed because I didn't see any reason on this one for you to pick at this guy so much. What gives?

DV1 - If you've been reading this forum since 2005, you probably already know who some of the characters are. My history with fork horn goes back to last week. I posted about some observations I've made on property I've tried to manage since the 80's and he kicked in with a statement about killing several big bucks on 16 acres he's managed in Michigan and something about owning his neighbors deer. And then went on to "pimp" his consulting business. I disagree with some of his management philosophies and "pimping" the consulting business on this forum.


What wrong Mrex? Every time this guy posts a informational post about his point of view you feel the need to chime in and try to belittle his opinion. this time you're trying to slant the conversation into accusations of advertising. Offering your opinion in a constructive manner is fine, but you don't have to act like a pompous know it all when offering a diverse opinion.

I know I can be the king of facetious comments, especially towards you. Heck this time I was going to post a picture of two old toms sparing. because this kind of reminds me of how an old tom gets when he sees a new long beard hanging around his flock....

Get over yourself and keep posting good information. just leave the big head out of it. :rolleyes:

As for this guy, he seems to be consumed with me and really can't stand it when others agree with whatever I write. There's a few others like that. I can't honestly say I've ever read anything of substance that he's written although it appears he thought about it this time. I will admit I usually skip over a thread if I see he's participated.

That may sound "pompous and arrogant", but it is what it is.

[JD Boyd]

Mrex I Agree With Everything You Say. By The Way You Said In Another Post About The State Record Typical Being Killed In Pike County. What Did It Score And Why Did'nt He Put It In The Books?

[mrex]

Mrex I Agree With Everything You Say. By The Way You Said In Another Post About The State Record Typical Being Killed In Pike County. What Did It Score And Why Did'nt He Put It In The Books?It netted 202 and some 8th's. There was a controversy over the deer (as there always is with the big ones) and after all was said and done, the hunter never entered the buck in the state record book.

[jackalope]

As for this guy, he seems to be consumed with me and really can't stand it when others agree with whatever I write. There's a few others like that. I can't honestly say I've ever read anything of substance that he's written although it appears he thought about it this time. I will admit I usually skip over a thread if I see he's participated.

That may sound "pompous and arrogant", but it is what it is.

Your right Mike, it is what it is.

It never sounds pompous when people respond to a comment in third person as if they were addressing the masses; by making proclamations in the third person as to the benefaction of an individual’s posts.

I have read many things that you have written, most I agree with.

My opinion and therefore facetious remarks come when I see others that disagree with you. Then you follow up with a rebuttal in a pompous overtone. Sometime subtle, but most times they reek of arrogance.

Your actually wrong, It’s not that I can’t stand it when others agree with you.. It’s when individuals don’t agree with you and you reply in a holier than thou persona, trying to solidify that persona by belittling their validity.

By the way, which is exactly what you just did. Again…..

[mrex]

Your right Mike, it is what it is.

It never sounds pompous when people respond to a comment in third person as if they were addressing the masses; by making proclamations in the third person as to the benefaction of an individual’s posts.

I have read many things that you have written, most I agree with.

My opinion and therefore facetious remarks come when I see others that disagree with you. Then you follow up with a rebuttal in a pompous overtone. Sometime subtle, but most times they reek of arrogance.

Your actually wrong, It’s not that I can’t stand it when others agree with you.. It’s when individuals don’t agree with you and you reply in a holier than thou persona, trying to solidify that persona by belittling their validity.

By the way, which is exactly what you just did. Again…..
Something of value, FINALLY (rebuttal in a pompous overtone). Of course, that assumes others are interested in what you (or your troll buddy) think of me or my writing. "He says knowingly". (More proclamations in the 3rd person as to the benefaction of an individual’s posts).

Back on topic. Do you think it's possible to have any real control over a mature bucks habbits? IMO, it's a lot like coyote or fox trapping. You can't force a fox to step "right there", you "suggest" or make it easier for him to go that way.

Also, if you read all of fork horns posts from the last 2 weeks, there is no mistaking his attempt to drum up interest in wildlife consultants and visiting his booth at the expo.

[mrex]

I will say this in Tom's defense. It takes bigger "stones" to come on here and speak your mind, regardless of the "tone", when you're not an anonymous poster hiding behind your key board.

[DV1]

DV1 - If you've been reading this forum since 2005, you probably already know who some of the characters are.

I registered here in 2005, but don't read much, and haven't posted because, like many other Ohio forums on the net, there seems to be some serious ill will towards non-resident hunters, and I'm a non-resident hunter in Ohio. I just don't feel like reading it most of the time, but sometimes I check in for entertainment because much of what is posted about non-residents is so far off base it is laughable.

I know not everyone is like that here, and to be honest, I've met some great people in Ohio, and have only once had someone express any anger towards me as a non-resident. That guy was someone who was in the process of road hunting at best, trying to sneak in to posted property at worst and I was one of those legally allowed to hunt that property so it was easy to see why he had that attitude.

Many of us are just trying to enjoy hunting in Ohio...just like the rest of you who happen to live there. No need for hostility. Good hunting guys.

DV

[jackalope]

Something of value, FINALLY (rebuttal in a pompous overtone). Of course, that assumes others are interested in what you (or your troll buddy) think of me or my writing. "He says knowingly". (More proclamations in the 3rd person as to the benefaction of an individual’s posts).

Back on topic. Do you think it's possible to have any real control over a mature bucks habbits? IMO, it's a lot like coyote or fox trapping. You can't force a fox to step "right there", you "suggest" or make it easier for him to go that way.

Also, if you read all of fork horns posts from the last 2 weeks, there is no mistaking his attempt to drum up interest in wildlife consultants and visiting his booth at the expo.

If it's not possible to do Mrex then why do you plant food plots?? to prevent soil erosion? I believe it is possible to do to an extent. But in the end it's the bucks choice to go where he wants... He wants food, safety water and a piece of tail.......... As far as a doe. she only wants food, security, and water... If she finds that she'll hang around providing those bucks that fourth element a piece of tail.

By providing these 4 things you can greatly increase the chances of holding mature bucks on your property.... Whether it's 1000 acres or 20.. it's just tons harder on 20 to provide the security. It really depends on the quality of the property around that 20 acres. If it's high pressured, the security will be the greatest benefit. The food doesn't even guarantee you'll hold them. Deer are browsers not grazers. They prefer a Varity of food.. sure you can try to hold deer by planting a small plot on that 20 acres, and having a corn feeder. But if that deer has a corn / alfalfa field nearby with oaks... he may very well be gone....

It's all subjective to the surrounding property on small parcels. But the answer is yes you can do a lot to control the habitat of mature bucks.

[So. Ohio Outfitters]

If it's not possible to do Mrex then why do you plant food plots?? to prevent soil erosion? I believe it is possible to do to an extent. But in the end it's the bucks choice to go where he wants... He wants food, safety water and a piece of tail.......... As far as a doe. she only wants food, security, and water... If she finds that she'll hang around providing those bucks that fourth element a piece of tail.

By providing these 4 things you can greatly increase the chances of holding mature bucks on your property.... Whether it's 1000 acres or 20.. it's just tons harder on 20 to provide the security. It really depends on the quality of the property around that 20 acres. If it's high pressured, the security will be the greatest benefit. The food doesn't even guarantee you'll hold them. Deer are browsers not grazers. They prefer a Varity of food.. sure you can try to hold deer by planting a small plot on that 20 acres, and having a corn feeder. But if that deer has a corn / alfalfa field nearby with oaks... he may very well be gone....

It's all subjective to the surrounding property on small parcels. But the answer is yes you can do a lot to control the habitat of mature bucks.


I would have to agree with this statement. I think a hunter can influence a buck to frequent an area more often by providing him with key elements, however, through my experience, even if you have all the elements, a mature buck may stop frequenting that area for any number of reasons. It doesn't have to be pressure on the buck that causes him to move locations, it may be a simple fact that an acorn tree on the next ridge over started dropping and that's more appealing. It is the bucks choice as to where he goes, and I definitely dont think you can "control" a buck to step in a paticular area every time. Theres a little 22 acre area that I've always hunted and still do to this day. It has all the elements that a big buck needs to survive. Alfalfa, oaks, water, cover.....and even though it has all these elements....do the bucks whole up there? No, they just pass through. From time to time I think a mature buck will whole up in an area like that for a week or so, but they have a greater home range than just 20 acres or less, and will move on. They may come back, but to just check on thiings, because this area lies in his home range. This is when most of your hunters connect. That's why you have to put a lot of time in on the stand and be there when they pass by. It doesn't take a buck long to investigate an area of that size. Why? Because Out of a 16 to 20 lot, a mature buck won't use that whole area, he'll pick 1 or 2 areas on that plot, possiblly makes his scrapes, feed, or bed. Just as any deer on any piece of ground does. They like certain areas for certain reasons. On that 22 acre lot, I've killed several pope and young bucks, and the largest buck I ever hunted, which is now know as the Willis buck, scoring 250 inches+ decided to make that his home for about a week and a half. Even though this area held does, and had everything he needed, he followed a doe onto another farm about 1/2 away and was shot. Just showing that with all the elements a buck will still leave an area with all his needs to check out other locations.

I think this subject has to many varibles to try and say this or that person isn't correct. Can you make an area more appealing to a buck to try and influence him? Most definitely....if that wasn't the case, our food plot guys would go out of buisness quick. Can you make keep him in that area "controlling" his every move? Absolutely not. The only way a hunter can say yes, he'll be there, is to put a 4 sided fence up around him.

[mrex]

[COLOR=black]If it's not possible to do Mrex then why do you plant food plots??

I’ve planted food plots in the past to attract game and in an “attempt” to positively influence nutrition. Most of my plots are small and I really haven't seen any improvement in overall herd health because of them. The last several years I’ve concentrated my efforts of habitat improvement with a chain saw.

I think a hunter can influence a buck to frequent an area more often by providing him with key elements, however, through my experience, even if you have all the elements, a mature buck may stop frequenting that area for any number of reasons. It doesn't have to be pressure on the buck that causes him to move locations, it may be a simple fact that an acorn tree on the next ridge over started dropping and that's more appealing. It is the bucks choice as to where he goes, and I definitely dont think you can "control" a buck to step in a paticular area every time...... Can you make an area more appealing to a buck to try and influence him? Most definitely....if that wasn't the case, our food plot guys would go out of buisness quick. Can you make keep him in that area "controlling" his every move? Absolutely not. The only way a hunter can say yes, he'll be there, is to put a 4 sided fence up around him.

My thoughts exactly.^^^^^

[ohiosam]

Best way to control mature bucks is with a sharp piece of steel or a hunk of lead:)

[bowhunter1023]

You are a very bright young man. A quick study!

I absorb everything I can! Even from "pompous a-holes"!!! ;)


So it looks like we can all agree that you can influence/persuade/manipulate a mature buck through habitat enrichments/improvements/changes/etc. So now that we have gotten hat far, why don’t we share/discuss/evaluate what each of us has done that has proven to be the most beneficial on our particular properties.

I mentioned my biggest problems with fork horn’s approach, and Mike and a few others agreed, is that he makes it seem that his approach will work everywhere. I do not hold this to be true in all circumstances, but I do believe there are bits and pieces of all management philosophies that can work anywhere in the country. Those are the tidbits we need to be sharing with one another, not the entire philosophy. A philosophy is created by considering all aspects of the equation. The hunting pressure/habitat/terrain/etc. in my area is much different than that in the area that fork horn frequents. How can I expect his practices on those 16 acres to produce similar results on my 80? I cannot. But I can take a few pieces of that philosophy, and few from Mike’s, a few from someone else’s, and few of my own and create a total management philosophy/plan that will work for my 80 acres.

Mike mentioned that his new habitat improvement philosophy revolves around the use of a chainsaw. I can relate to this, although I doubt it is on the same scale. The first projects I undertook on our property involved the use of a chainsaw and they have proven to be the most beneficial. The north end of our property was clear cut about 10 years prior to our purchase of the farm. Our property is intersected by a creek that runs east/west. The terrain rises from the creek roughly 80 feet in elevation, benching once, and then leveling off on the ridge which houses several white oaks and a 20 acre crop field.

My first project was to cut a trail through the thousands of new growth saplings from one side of the property, to the next, along that bench. This connected the two bedding areas that lie on either side of our land. Then I cut three trails up from the bottom, to the top of the ridge providing easy access to water and food. This area is the best spot on our farm in the early season.

My second project was to duplicate this on the south side of the farm along two well used shelves that 90 where our north/south holler meets the east/west holler. This trail again connected bedding areas on either side of the property. I also dropped a few larger trees on the back side of one of our few bedding areas to protect from a west wind. This enhanced the bedding in a small locust thicket.

The last thing I did during my initial improvements, was to fell several large trees along the border of a ridge top honeysuckle thicket I wished to set aside as a sanctuary. These trees provide cover from the wind, as well as a visual barrier for predators that could see under the browse line in that thicket. This is my best bedding area now.

The best improvements to our farm were made with a chainsaw, not disc, plow, or seed drill…

[mrex]

I absorb everything I can! Even from "pompous a-holes"!!! ;)
You must also have a wise a$$ mentor in there somewhere. ;)

It’s been my experience here in SE Ohio that the best you can hope for, from a small land managers perspective (<200 acres), is the creation of desirable habitat that will hold doe/family groups, as they truly do spend the majority of their lives in a fairly small area, if all of their basic needs are met. The upside is that the best or most mature bucks in any given area should be present during the one time of year they are most vulnerable. Does become “bait” so to speak.

This is a really complex topic but I will site a few examples of why I don’t believe all of fork horns philosophies apply to the area I've tried to manage.

First, I believe he is correct in regards to mature bucks when he states that human intrusion will “booger them up”. However, in an area like mine, where the buck to doe ratios are nowhere near as bad as his are in Michigan, they “booger themselves up”. Antler size has absolutely nothing to do with dominance. Some of the most dominant and aggressive bucks I’ve observed over the years would not score P&Y. Mature bucks will disperse during the rut in areas with increased competition. And if a bad @$$ 5 year old 6 point sets up shop in your little area, you, like most of the does, are screwed.

An example from my 800-acre lab. Twenty years ago, I decided to make a 30-acre “sanctuary” directly behind my home. This sanctuary consisted of the best wildlife habitat in the section and was off limits to all hunting or human intrusion of any kind. From the hill above my home (second highest point in Athens County) I could view all of this area including a strategically placed 3.5 acre food plot and a winter time supplemental feed station, without alerting the deer of my presence. In 1995, I had a 5.5-year-old, B&C class buck frequenting this area. He was easily recognizable from the 3 previous years and had an “attitude” that clearly made him king of the hill. We got so much enjoyment from watching him that I made a conscience decision that nobody I had any control over, including myself, would intentionally kill this buck. On November 9th, 1995, my best friend arrowed him while chasing a doe, (a case of mistaken identity I’ve never gotten over), on the opposite end of the property I manage, over 1.5 miles away. Over the years, I’ve observed many bucks in the sanctuary that have met their demise on the opposite end of the farm or neighboring properties.

In open farm country, where deer densities are lower, I would think mature bucks would have an even greater propensity to travel during the rut, making them even harder to “control”. I’m guessing that Tom’s technique for “controlling” a big buck is more easily pulled off in areas of extremely high deer densities with grossly lopsided buck/doe ratios, which is not the case in most of Ohio.

[Monroe]

I have had good success getting deer to live through the years on my place - the main ingredient is to have a sanctuary and to keep them close to home during the invasion of the orange army. You really can't keep them safe the rest of the time - but if you concentrate on gun season - their chances of living are much greater.

I had a 5 year old that we nicknamed sticker make it through until last year - he made it through gun season - but got sniped by a road hunter in muzzleloader. He used to strut his stuff come mid december - coming out in the day light and prancing around - kind of sticking his nose up at the orangees. Anyway - there is an empty spot in my familys heart this winter with no sticker showing up in the back yard. I do have a bunch of other guys now- just 2 years of history at this point thogh.

to conclude - I have about 170 acres surrounded by a war zone - but I keep deer alive every year - and I think the key is not violating the sancutary during the critical time of year - and to keep the golden acorns flowing during this time period. And a chainsaw, of course!

Monroe

[So. Ohio Outfitters]

You must also have a wise a$$ mentor in there somewhere. ;)

It’s been my experience here in SE Ohio that the best you can hope for, from a small land managers perspective (<200 acres), is the creation of desirable habitat that will hold doe/family groups, as they truly do spend the majority of their lives in a fairly small area, if all of their basic needs are met. The upside is that the best or most mature bucks in any given area should be present during the one time of year they are most vulnerable. Does become “bait” so to speak.

This is a really complex topic but I will site a few examples of why I don’t believe all of fork horns philosophies apply to the area I've tried to manage.

First, I believe he is correct in regards to mature bucks when he states that human intrusion will “booger them up”. However, in an area like mine, where the buck to doe ratios are nowhere near as bad as his are in Michigan, they “booger themselves up”. Antler size has absolutely nothing to do with dominance. Some of the most dominant and aggressive bucks I’ve observed over the years would not score P&Y. Mature bucks will disperse during the rut in areas with increased competition. And if a bad @$$ 5 year old 6 point sets up shop in your little area, you, like most of the does, are screwed.

An example from my 800-acre lab. Twenty years ago, I decided to make a 30-acre “sanctuary” directly behind my home. This sanctuary consisted of the best wildlife habitat in the section and was off limits to all hunting or human intrusion of any kind. From the hill above my home (second highest point in Athens County) I could view all of this area including a strategically placed 3.5 acre food plot and a winter time supplemental feed station, without alerting the deer of my presence. In 1995, I had a 5.5-year-old, B&C class buck frequenting this area. He was easily recognizable from the 3 previous years and had an “attitude” that clearly made him king of the hill. We got so much enjoyment from watching him that I made a conscience decision that nobody I had any control over, including myself, would intentionally kill this buck. On November 9th, 1995, my best friend arrowed him while chasing a doe, (a case of mistaken identity I’ve never gotten over), on the opposite end of the property I manage, over 1.5 miles away. Over the years, I’ve observed many bucks in the sanctuary that have met their demise on the opposite end of the farm or neighboring properties.

In open farm country, where deer densities are lower, I would think mature bucks would have an even greater propensity to travel during the rut, making them even harder to “control”. I’m guessing that Tom’s technique for “controlling” a big buck is more easily pulled off in areas of extremely high deer densities with grossly lopsided buck/doe ratios, which is not the case in most of Ohio.


I think just as Mike has demonstrated....bucks travel more than hunters really think they do. We like to think that a buck will stay in an area of 20 acres, but truthfully they travel much much farther, during early season and especially during the rut. A little while back I posted some pics of a buck with bad genetics that was on 5 out of 6 cameras....all spread out over an area of about 1 mile. There was nothing to cause those deer to move that far. I think sometimes bucks, even in the early season are creatures of travel....more than even hunters really imagine. It was kind of an eye opener for me, and reminded me not to be as close minded as I sometimes have the tendency to be....especially during the early season...

also,

I like the chainsaw method myself as well.... I think sometimes we as hunters can focus on food to much, and not enough on cover and creating dense thickets. The best places I've found to hunt mature bucks over the years has been the thickest places I've ever hunted...good points brought out by all though.

[JD Boyd]

I Have A Friend That Videoed A Pie Bold 6 Point That Would Make Pope-young In 2000 On Trc Property By Honda. A Month Later During Rut He Videoed Him By The Pyatt Castles At West Liberty. As A Crow Flies Its Around 8 Miles. This Is An Area With Alot Of Deer. So Getting A Mature Buck To Stay On 20 Acres Good Luck.

[huntrjm]

If it's generally agreed that there is no controling a mature buck and they can range far from anyones attempt to hold them on a particular property does it make sense to try and hold a group of does on the property to attract any of these cruising bucks. Is a mature doe/any doe group any easier to "hold". Most does lack distinguishing characteristics (antlers) that would identify them in other "areas". Is it a given, especially during the rut, these does stay in a small range and are not being moved, chased, or just cruising for some stud?

[JD Boyd]

I'm Sure Some Of You Have Heard Of Roger Rathauer. All He Does Is Hunt Now, 70 Years Old Still Hunting With A Recurve, He Has Close To 700 Acres In Iowa. Deer All Over The Place. He Has Killed 2 Bucks This Season That Gross Over 160 That He Has Never Seen Before He Shot Them. So What I'm Getting At Is You Can Do All The Food Plots And Corn Piles What Ever There Still Going To Go Where Ever They Want.

[mrex]

I have had good success getting deer to live through the years on my place - the main ingredient is to have a sanctuary and to keep them close to home during the invasion of the orange army. You really can't keep them safe the rest of the time - but if you concentrate on gun season - their chances of living are much greater.

I had a 5 year old that we nicknamed sticker make it through until last year - he made it through gun season - but got sniped by a road hunter in muzzleloader. He used to strut his stuff come mid december - coming out in the day light and prancing around - kind of sticking his nose up at the orangees. Anyway - there is an empty spot in my familys heart this winter with no sticker showing up in the back yard. I do have a bunch of other guys now- just 2 years of history at this point thogh.

to conclude - I have about 170 acres surrounded by a war zone - but I keep deer alive every year - and I think the key is not violating the sancutary during the critical time of year - and to keep the golden acorns flowing during this time period. And a chainsaw, of course!

Monroe

More heresy!!! (couldn't resist :biggrin: )

I blame the gun season protection program for a small part of my management failures. Granted, 800 acres is a different nut than 170.

Our place is bordered by public hunting on 2 sides and an absentee land owner on a third that may as well be public. From 1988 to 2005, I burnt a weeks vacation to "patrol" the property during the invasion of the pumkin people and haven't hunted deer with a gun since the early 80's. I cut a 4 mile ATV trail around the perimeter and made a lap around the property every few hours for a week. If you think I'm unpopular on this forum, you should talk to some of the locals who used to hunt this area before I showed up. I've been in fist fights (kicked a guy out 3 times in 1 week - an out of stater I might add) and had one of the largest clan of outlaws in this area arrested for refusing to leave (ever stared down 12 guys with guns that look like Manson Family groupies waiting for the law to arrive?)

Like you, my hope was that a few would slip through the cracks and to some extent, this happened. My problem, as I mentioned in an earlier post was that we didn't take enough deer out while the habitat eroded. In retrospect, a few responsible gun hunters might have actually helped me out but there's always that fear of running something out to get wacked on the neighbors.

[So. Ohio Outfitters]

If you think I'm unpopular on this forum, you should talk to some of the locals who used to hunt this area before I showed up. I've been in fist fights (kicked a guy out 3 times in 1 week - an out of stater I might add) and had one of the largest clan of outlaws in this area arrested for refusing to leave (ever stared down 12 guys with guns that look like Manson Family groupies waiting for the law to arrive?)




LOL........I feel your pain brother. Same thing here.

[mrex]

I had a 5 year old that we nicknamed sticker make it through until last year - he made it through gun season - but got sniped by a road hunter in muzzleloader. He used to strut his stuff come mid december - coming out in the day light and prancing around - kind of sticking his nose up at the orangees. Anyway - there is an empty spot in my familys heart this winter with no sticker showing up in the back yard.

We had a buck here for 4 years that showed up every year around Thanksgiving. My kids named him goofy horns. He had a typical 150" gross 9 point frame that was the same each year with 3 stickers off of his right G2 and a habit of breaking off his left brow tine every other year. For 2 years, I let the DOW dart and radio collar does on my property after bow season for a fawn mortality study. One year, they darted goofy horns after he had shed, mistaking him for a doe (he had a torn left ear that made him easily identifiable). I begged them to put a collar on him just so we could learn how far he traveled and where he was the rest of the year. I even offered to pay for the collar but they refused, although they did clamp a metal band in his good ear.

The last year he showed up like clock work the day after Thanksgiving but disappeared during gun season. We saw him the following week twice, shed and limping terribly with a broken front shoulder. We never saw him after that.

[mrex]

Is a mature doe/any doe group any easier to "hold". Most does lack distinguishing characteristics (antlers) that would identify them in other "areas". Is it a given, especially during the rut, these does stay in a small range and are not being moved, chased, or just cruising for some stud?
As I mentioned in the previous post, the DOW radio collard several does on my property. Eleven to be exact, and then came back and radio collard their new born fawns in the spring. They kept track of these deer for several years and for the most part, the does stayed in a fairly small home range (<100 acres) all year. I saw numbers 7 and 9 in my yard almost daily for many years. However, their male offspring were often displaced many miles from their original home range as they matured.

[mrex]

I'm Sure Some Of You Have Heard Of Roger Rathauer. All He Does Is Hunt Now, 70 Years Old Still Hunting With A Recurve, He Has Close To 700 Acres In Iowa. Deer All Over The Place. He Has Killed 2 Bucks This Season That Gross Over 160 That He Has Never Seen Before He Shot Them. So What I'm Getting At Is You Can Do All The Food Plots And Corn Piles What Ever There Still Going To Go Where Ever They Want.

Roger Rothhaar might be the most knowledgeable whitetail bowhunter of all time.

[Monroe]

I laughed out loud when i pictured you racing around the perimeter of the property - because I do the same thing. What a nightmare gun season is. Mine is a little different though cause I am in PA - and we have twice the number of hunters. I stand by the window every night during the season to see what comes into the backyard - what made it. Gun season will take years off my life.

I see your point though about killing some deer. We have almost 800 acres in monroe - about 45 miles as the crow flys from my "home" in PA. No way to really patrol it hard - cause it is just far enough away to make it rough. I am still under the same duress though - trying hard to get individual deer to make it through. I have captured something like 17 different bucks on film over the last 3 weeks - but only one 3 year old. where are the old guys? Our goal there is to try to keep deer closer to the center of the property during gun season - but, those critters are hard to keep home. Most of the property is a thick nasty thicket already - but even so, the deer don't recognize where the property lines are.

We have done a good job shooting "management" bucks the last couple of years. I will let you know if this works out for us... I WILL be breaking my release finger this year the weekend before season....

[TheCream]

I'm sorry, without a large fence, it is not possible to control where a buck is going to stay 24/7/365. Sometimes I think folks give whitetails too much credit for what people believe is their intellect. They are a wild animal. They eat, sleep, make babies, and survive. If a buck gets after a hot doe on the edge of your property and she runs across a property line, do you really think the deer sees a NO TRESPASSING sign and thinks "Gee, I could stay here and be safe, maybe find a different doe, or I could follow this hot female across this property boundary?" They are wild animals, they will roam where their senses and instincts lead them. You might have 100 acres, you might have 1000, there is no way, without a fence, to always keep your bucks on your place. You can have all the food, bedding, and shelter you can provide, they will still leave your property sometimes. It is inevitable.

[fork horn]

I'm sorry, without a large fence, it is not possible to control where a buck is going to stay 24/7/365. Sometimes I think folks give whitetails too much credit for what people believe is their intellect. They are a wild animal. They eat, sleep, make babies, and survive. If a buck gets after a hot doe on the edge of your property and she runs across a property line, do you really think the deer sees a NO TRESPASSING sign and thinks "Gee, I could stay here and be safe, maybe find a different doe, or I could follow this hot female across this property boundary?" They are wild animals, they will roam where their senses and instincts lead them. You might have 100 acres, you might have 1000, there is no way, without a fence, to always keep your bucks on your place. You can have all the food, bedding, and shelter you can provide, they will still leave your property sometimes. It is inevitable.

I am sorry I was miss understood ... If you go back and read you will find that at no point did I say... I CAN CONTROL any deer 24 hours a day... 365 days a year. For anyone to think they could do that on small acreage would be very silly.. what I was suggesting was that by giving a mature buck what he needs most.. cover/safety, food, water.. and most importently near zero disturbance, he will stay there most of the time. Meaning daylight hours during times of danger.. IE hunting season.. "The rest of the year I could care less where he goes".. That said I have found that they will... in most instances stay around most of the year having found sheds from most of the bucks that I have shot from five states this tells me they where not just there when I shot them in hunting season.. I have also glassed most of the bucks I have shot on or very near the same chunk of ground in the summer that I have shot them on in hunting season.. so 365 no 24/7 no.. but as long as he is there when ever he feels danger that is all that matters to me.. Now I have I ever lost bucks to neighbors hell yes 80% of the bucks I lose to them are 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year old bucks. Most of them are not chasing does they just don't know better yet.. The bucks they get chasing does are most always the 3 1/2 year olds. I have never lost 4 1/2 year old or older buck to a neighbor that I was watching on one of my hunting properties since 1990 when I started really doing what it takes.

PS.
If I could give any of you some good advice. DON'T set buck decoys up just for fun and have bucks come to them and let them go so you can video tape them, you will surely educate your more mature bucks on your land that something is not right.. not to mention to go in and out of your hunting land durning hunting season and possibly bumping a buck to your neighbor.. just so you can play with a video camera is just plain not very smart. I read this in a magazine the other day when I stopped to fill up my truck with gas in Dayton Ohio on my way down to Kentucky... I was setting several hunting properties down there. I could not believe what I was reading.. I think I read where this same guy was having problems managing bucks on 600 acres of ground.. I am starting to see why.. :whistle:

Guys... I have to leave to set two properties up in Illinois tomorrow but I am sure you will have some fun with this one...;)

[jackalope]

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http://www.enigmamusic.com/forum/images/smilies/couch[1].gif
.gif"] ("http://www.enigmamusic.com/forum/images/smilies/poke[1)

[mrex]

I am sorry I was miss understood ... If you go back and read you will find that at no point did I say... I CAN CONTROL any deer 24 hours a day... 365 days a year. For anyone to think they could do that on small acreage would be very silly.. what I was suggesting was that by giving a mature buck what he needs most.. cover/safety, food, water.. and most importently near zero disturbance, he will stay there most of the time. Meaning daylight hours during times of danger.. IE hunting season.. "The rest of the year I could care less where he goes".. That said I have found that they will... in most instances stay around most of the year having found sheds from most of the bucks that I have shot from five states this tells me they where not just there when I shot them in hunting season.. I have also glassed most of the bucks I have shot on or very near the same chunk of ground in the summer that I have shot them on in hunting season.. so 365 no 24/7 no.. but as long as he is there when ever he feels danger that is all that matters to me.. Now I have I ever lost bucks to neighbors hell yes 80% of the bucks I lose to them are 1 1/2 or 2 1/2 year old bucks. Most of them are not chasing does they just don't know better yet.. The bucks they get chasing does are most always the 3 1/2 year olds. I have never lost 4 1/2 year old or older buck to a neighbor that I was watching on one of my hunting properties since 1990 when I started really doing what it takes.

PS.
If I could give any of you some good advice. DON'T set buck decoys up just for fun and have bucks come to them and let them go so you can video tape them, you will surely educate your more mature bucks on your land that something is not right.. not to mention to go in and out of your hunting land durning hunting season and possibly bumping a buck to your neighbor.. just so you can play with a video camera is just plain not very smart. I read this in a magazine the other day when I stopped to fill up my truck with gas in Dayton Ohio on my way down to Kentucky... I was setting several hunting properties down there. I could not believe what I was reading.. I think I read where this same guy was having problems managing bucks on 600 acres of ground.. I am starting to see why.. :whistle:

Guys... I have to leave to set two properties up in Illinois tomorrow but I am sure you will have some fun with this one...;)
I read that article also. That guy sure could use some advice from a "self proclaimed" land management consultant.

[Shed Head]

Mike, You'r just to nice.

[Shed Head]

[quote=mrex;235097]I’ve planted food plots in the past to attract game and in an “attempt” to positively influence nutrition. Most of my plots are small and I really haven't seen any improvement in overall herd health because of them. The last several years I’ve concentrated my efforts of habitat improvement with a chain saw.


How's your clear cut been working for you? I've started hing-cutting several areas on a smaller scale. One I worked on last winter worked real well for Jeanne this past fall, sold her on the chainsaw theory.
If your ever around Mineral Wells and have a few minutes, stop by and check out the farm, I need some advice on killing a 7.5 yr old this fall.

[Thunderflight]

Sometimes I think folks give whitetails too much credit for what people believe is their intellect. They are a wild animal. They eat, sleep, make babies, and survive.

:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat:

[fork horn]

I read that article also. That guy sure could use some advice from a "self proclaimed" land management consultant.

Well Mike from the very first thing you wrote on here in response to me you where condescending and rude.. I was only trying to help and motivate.. "self proclaimed" you can call it what you want.. Mike, I make I living setting up hunting land and hunting.. it is how I pay my bills. I will set up over 100 properties this season again.. I am in Illinois doing number 22 and 23 for the year this week.. then I have a Boot Camp this weekend it's sold out.. it looks like all of my boot camps will sell out for the third year in a row. This is not something I do on my free time or on vacation from my REAL job like you. It IS my job.. it is something I do ALL THE TIME not after work or my kids ball game... all day EVERY DAY.. I am in the woods somewhere in one of 8 states in the midwest not just one,.. my bucks have came from 5 different states not just one.. and a hand full of them came off state ground not just privet properties. I have never shot a buck with an outfitter. (I have not shot a few bucks and then anointed my self an expert.) I have set up almost 400 properties in the last 4 years 1,000's of acres. I don't know it all, never will.. I am learning new things all the time but not from reading articals.. from being in the woods EVERY day LIVING it... SEEING it. I am on my lap top at my hotel in Illinois I just got in from spending the day in the woods making deer habitat.. and setting up some new stand sets. It was 20 degrees in my office today... Mike.. It is what I do it's my job..;)

[mrex]

[quote=mrex;235097]I’ve planted food plots in the past to attract game and in an “attempt” to positively influence nutrition. Most of my plots are small and I really haven't seen any improvement in overall herd health because of them. The last several years I’ve concentrated my efforts of habitat improvement with a chain saw.


How's your clear cut been working for you? I've started hing-cutting several areas on a smaller scale. One I worked on last winter worked real well for Jeanne this past fall, sold her on the chainsaw theory.
If your ever around Mineral Wells and have a few minutes, stop by and check out the farm, I need some advice on killing a 7.5 yr old this fall.

Frank - That clear cut is hands down the most positive step I've taken towards habitat improvement for the ground that I hunt. In just 4 years, I have seen an obvious and dramatic increase in the quality and quantity of wildlife that inhabit the area. Most notably, the turkey population.

As far as that 7.5 year old buck is concerned, as you know, I don't really have much experience with getting close to mature bucks. You'd probably be better off consulting with a certified land manager. I'd probably seek one out who's accredited with the American Federation of Certified Land Managers. Those guys are unreal. For a few bucks, they'll come down and "set your place up" and that old buck will spend the rest of his life on a postage stamp.

The best advice I can offer would be to stay off your place the entire year. It's pretty much accepted knowledge that if a big buck is "bumped" he's gone for good. And make sure the neighbors dog doesn't slip back there on Tuesday, July 2nd at 1:00 pm while your at work because that's every bit as destructive to your efforts to kill him as filming the old boy after you've already tagged out for the current year. It's a little known fact that deer have the memory of an elephant and will certainly remember every time they've been "spooked" their whole life and never return to that area. Especially the next year.

Next time I'm down that way I'll look you up.;)

[mrex]

Well Mike from the very first thing you wrote on here in response to me you where condescending and rude.. I was only trying to help and motivate.. "self proclaimed" you can call it what you want.. Mike, I make I living setting up hunting land and hunting.. it is how I pay my bills. I will set up over 100 properties this season again.. I am in Illinois doing number 22 and 23 for the year this week.. then I have a Boot Camp this weekend it's sold out.. it looks like all of my boot camps will sell out for the third year in a row. This is not something I do on my free time or on vacation from my REAL job like you. It IS my job.. it is something I do ALL THE TIME not after work or my kids ball game... all day EVERY DAY.. I am in the woods somewhere in one of 8 states in the midwest not just one,.. my bucks have came from 5 different states not just one.. and a hand full of them came off state ground not just privet properties. I have never shot a buck with an outfitter. (I have not shot a few bucks and then anointed my self an expert.) I have set up almost 400 properties in the last 4 years 1,000's of acres. I don't know it all, never will.. I am learning new things all the time but not from reading articals.. from being in the woods EVERY day LIVING it... SEEING it. I am on my lap top at my hotel in Illinois I just got in from spending the day in the woods making deer habitat.. and setting up some new stand sets. It was 20 degrees in my office today... Mike.. It is what I do it's my job..;)

Really? And the whole time I thought you were just trying to drum up traffic for your booth at the deer and turkey expo.

Please accept my apology!

[Monroe]

Am I allowed to ask who forkhorn is? People pay you to pick out stand sites? Am I that naive?

[JD Boyd]

Am I allowed to ask who forkhorn is? People pay you to pick out stand sites? Am I that naive?

I guess we are. This guy is still selling on here. Where does he find these people to pay him to hang stands for them? I have been trophy hunting for 10 years now. Every thing I've read on here is pretty much common sense now. I think people need to figure some things out themselves thats why this is an exciting sport.

[fork horn]

Really? And the whole time I thought you were just trying to drum up traffic for your booth at the deer and turkey expo.

Please accept my apology!

Mike,
I posted that I would be at that show because many people from the forum messaged and asked if I would be there.. It is funny you say I am here to pick up business, because the most people I have seen on this forum at one time was around 15.. I would be hard pressed to fill up 6 months worth of land managements and 10 boot camps from this forum... I have 20 hunters at lest in each Boot Camp class I would be five short of full for only one class if you do the math.. I told them to stop by and talk land management and hunting that is all. I am almost booked full for the year.. right now. I have been booked solid for 4 years strait.. way before I came here.. read my other post on here I am here to help other hunters.

But I accept your apology Mike.. Good hunting and may you shoot strait my friend.

[Milo]

this thread ha sit all..entertainment AND education....:) thanks Mike!!

[mrex]

Mike,
I posted that I would be at that show (4 times) because many people from the forum messaged and asked if I would be there.. It is funny you say I am here to pick up business, because the most people I have seen on this forum at one time was around 15.. I would be hard pressed to fill up 6 months worth of land managements and 10 boot camps from this forum... I have 20 hunters at lest in each Boot Camp class I would be five short of full for only one class if you do the math..(15 at one time - 100's over the course of a day - how many visitors over a weeks time? - your posts don't self destruct, although they do sort of implode - do the math) I told them to stop by and talk land management and hunting that is all. (4 times) I am almost booked full for the year.. right now. I have been booked solid for 4 years strait.. way before I came here.. read my other post on here I am here to help other hunters.

But I accept your apology Mike.. Good hunting and may you shoot strait my friend.

Then why even go to our expo? Just to spread the gospel? That's a 3 day weekend in March that you could be out "settin' up properties." With the booth and expenses, you'll easily have 1k out of pocket.

If I were you, I'd call Glen and tell him you want your $ back.

[Thunderflight]

Just curious, but how old are both of you?

[CritterGitter]

We have a guy that is a member of this site that does taxidermy. He is not a sponsoring member and has never once mentioned that he is a taxidermist or does taxidermy work in any of his posts ever. He has been a member of this site for years! He is helpful and offers advice from time to time.

Forkhorn, I am not sure why if a person asked you in PM if you will be at the Expo that you felt it necessary to announce it in the forum that you will be there in a vendor booth.

Also, personal attacks are a no no. If you have a problem with a member of the site you should resolve it directly with that member or bring it to the attention of a moderator.

Kyle

[Milo]

Serious question ( huge gasp)

When you guys break out the chain saw, are you leaving the logs behind or taking them out? We have a bunch of poplar we are going to rid our place of so the oaks growing underneath can get going.

[Thunderflight]

You could use the logs to build hunting blinds or a small cabin.

[Lance]

You can also leave some logs on the ground. Grouse need drumming logs then your helping add to you for forest diversity. :)

[Milo]

You can also leave some logs on the ground. Grouse need drumming logs then your helping add to you for forest diversity. :)
We were planning on it....We have a few and they are off limits....:shhh:

[mrex]

Tom - Although Kyle deleted your last post, rest assured that all of us who contributed to this thread got to read it in the email alerting us to a new post.

I will be sure to look you up in Columbus next month to discuss our differing "management" philosophies.

[bowhunter1023]

Mike,

What are your thoughts on hinge/half cutting?

[mrex]

Serious question ( huge gasp)

When you guys break out the chain saw, are you leaving the logs behind or taking them out? We have a bunch of poplar we are going to rid our place of so the oaks growing underneath can get going.
I did both.

I clear cut 76 acres through the center of a 200 acre parcel. The whole piece needs to start from scratch as the previous owners "raped" the forest repeatedly and left nothing but junk, but I just couldn't bring myself to cut it all down at once.

At the start, the loggers were dragging the tops into the drainage's. About 20 acres into it, I asked them to stop and leave everything where it fell because I wanted it to be as thick as possible as quick as possible.

One mistake I made was having them leave some 8 to 10 inch trees that had some potential. My initial thought was that that would jump start the reforestation process, which it may, but the big downside was that it made for excellent roosting / perch sites for avian predators and they don't need the help.

This is a picture of the center of my clear cut the following summer. We call it "ground zero".

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/PupFan1/groundzero1.jpg

[mrex]

And here's a summer time picture (from video) of a big buck being spooked out of ground zero!

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/PupFan1/Picture002.jpg

and here's another picture of that same buck the following fall. I'm telling ya' guys, you need to stay out for ever and playing with the video camera is the kiss if death....for the deer.;)

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/PupFan1/corey06031.jpg

[mrex]

Mike,

What are your thoughts on hinge/half cutting?

It's a lot of work but probably the quickest way I know of to improve most forests.

[HeartLunger]

Mike,

What are your thoughts on hinge/half cutting?

1023,

For the less educated, such as myself, could you explain what hinge/half cutting is and what the perceived benefits are? Thanks!

[bowhunter1023]

1023,

For the less educated, such as myself, could you explain what hinge/half cutting is and what the perceived benefits are? Thanks!

http://www.qdmaforums.com/showthread.php?t=13394

Read the fourth post. I think that will help you the most.

Another place to check out...

http://www.iowawhitetail.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=244925&fpart=1

[bowhunter1023]

HL,

There is a good article in the QDM magazine this month about chainsaw use and hinge cutting, I can send it to you when I am done with it if you would like.

[Milo]

I did both.

I clear cut 76 acres through the center of a 200 acre parcel. The whole piece needs to start from scratch as the previous owners "raped" the forest repeatedly and left nothing but junk, but I just couldn't bring myself to cut it all down at once.

At the start, the loggers were dragging the tops into the drainage's. About 20 acres into it, I asked them to stop and leave everything where it fell because I wanted it to be as thick as possible as quick as possible.

One mistake I made was having them leave some 8 to 10 inch trees that had some potential. My initial thought was that that would jump start the reforestation process, which it may, but the big downside was that it made for excellent roosting / perch sites for avian predators and they don't need the help.

This is a picture of the center of my clear cut the following summer. We call it "ground zero".

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p90/PupFan1/groundzero1.jpg
Thanks Mike. We have a load of young oaks say 4-6 footers growing and the poplar trees are shading them out. We are having a hard time finding anyone who wants the poplar so were going to cut and drag some and leave quite a few. Our place was hit hard with saw in about the 50's and the hardwoods are just really getting going trying to re-establish themselves. We have a great start by we have a few problem areas that need rectified. How well did this area grow back and did you get much soil erosion once the cover was gone? did you replant trees in that area or let the natural seed take over?

[Milo]

Mike,

What are your thoughts on hinge/half cutting?I know the pot growers like to "ring" trees so their goodies aren't as visible from the air. Just keep an eye out for helicopters:whistle::idea::mischeif:

[jackalope]

I know the pot growers like to "ring" trees so their goodies aren't as visible from the air. Just keep an eye out for helicopters:whistle::idea::mischeif:


It doesn't help much, I have an uncle that’s a narc agent, he says pot glows like a Christmas tree when using a FLIR system.

[HeartLunger]

HL,

There is a good article in the QDM magazine this month about chainsaw use and hinge cutting, I can send it to you when I am done with it if you would like.


That would be great! Just pm me when you are done with it. Thanks for the info!

[Milo]

It doesn't help much, I have an uncle that’s a narc agent, he says pot glows like a Christmas tree when using a FLIR system. Thats what they all say:shhh::mischeif::mischeif: j/k

[mrex]

Tom - I just went back and re-read this thread. Trying to be objective, I see how you could have taken offense to my earlier post. To be perfectly honest, I had completely forgotten about this discussion until you posted that "dig" on my latest article.

IMO, you come across a little strong with your opinions about wildlife and land management. You may find this hard to believe, but I've been accused of being the same way.;)

In all seriousness, there is probably a whole lot more that we agree on vs. disagree on regarding this subject. Life is to short to be mad at people you don't even know. Please consider this a cyber "olive branch"

Let the group hug / "kumbaya" replies begin.;)

[bowhunter1023]

I know the pot growers like to "ring" trees so their goodies aren't as visible from the air. Just keep an eye out for helicopters:whistle::idea::mischeif:

And how would you know this!?! :mischeif:

That ain't the way to do it. You gotta find the evergreens... :shhh: They make excellent thermal cover.

[Monroe]

Milo-
No need to replant in this area - unless of course you want something other to grow than the natural hardwoods. Lots of stored seeds buried in the ground just waiting for a chance...

On the hinge cutting - you can hinge cut the yellow-poplar - not a great term for it but the whole gist of this is to cut the tree so that it falls and is still "attached" to the roots - thus the trees branches continue to sprout and make browse as well as cover. It is pretty hard to do this with poplar - and it isn't the "most preferred" deer browse. This is a great technique to use with red maple.

The safest for you and the oak you want to protect is just to girdle the poplar - even spray a little glyphosate (roundup) in the girdled areas this spring - that will do the trick and it won't translocate to other trees... When you start felling trees it becomes dangerous (even the small ones) plus - if you don't know what you are doing you will smash the trees you are trying to protect.

If you girdle them and leave them, plenty of sunlight will make it in, plus they will make good habitat for other critters.

MREX - Looks like you have a bunch of common mullen in that clearcut - now I know your managment secret.

[Milo]

Milo-
No need to replant in this area - unless of course you want something other to grow than the natural hardwoods. Lots of stored seeds buried in the ground just waiting for a chance...

On the hinge cutting - you can hinge cut the yellow-poplar - not a great term for it but the whole gist of this is to cut the tree so that it falls and is still "attached" to the roots - thus the trees branches continue to sprout and make browse as well as cover. It is pretty hard to do this with poplar - and it isn't the "most preferred" deer browse. This is a great technique to use with red maple.

The safest for you and the oak you want to protect is just to girdle the poplar - even spray a little glyphosate (roundup) in the girdled areas this spring - that will do the trick and it won't translocate to other trees... When you start felling trees it becomes dangerous (even the small ones) plus - if you don't know what you are doing you will smash the trees you are trying to protect.

If you girdle them and leave them, plenty of sunlight will make it in, plus they will make good habitat for other critters.

MREX - Looks like you have a bunch of common mullen in that clearcut - now I know your managment secret.
Thanks Monroe. Appreciate the advice...You too Mike:bouncy:

[fork horn]

Tom - Although Kyle deleted your last post, rest assured that all of us who contributed to this thread got to read it in the email alerting us to a new post.

I will be sure to look you up in Columbus next month to discuss our differing "management" philosophies.


Mike you kill me.. you see it has came back what the REAL prolem is.. I have a different opinion than you do.. that is not aloud in your world or on your forum..

Come by and see me.. booth 535.. but I just don't care for you at all and at this point nothing you say will change that sorry.. I really hope only the best for you man.. You need to get over your insecurities and let others talk sometimes to... there is more than just your way to do things... you are not the only hunter to ever shoot a few big deer.. Anyway I am way to busy to play with you man... guess I will get to see/meet you soon enough..

PS.
I still think setting up decoy during hunting season just to video bucks is a bad idea.. Video them from 500 yards away when they don't know your there yeah thats one thing... but to have them come in to a decoy and then run off after they find out it is not a real deer or smell you and run next door to get shot.. just does not sound like a good way to keep hunting pressure down on my best hunting land.. think about it.. There are just way more bad things that could happen than good ones.. Oh I am sorry I know... I am not aloud to have an opinion unless it is the same as yours.. you kill me man....

Tom

[fork horn]

Serious question ( huge gasp)

When you guys break out the chain saw, are you leaving the logs behind or taking them out? We have a bunch of poplar we are going to rid our place of so the oaks growing underneath can get going.

Milo,

Your problem is a common one.. I have ran into it many times when setting hunting properties.. Many loggers will not take trees like Cotton wood and poplar. BUT...

I have a logger I have been working with for years out of Indiana the company is called PalletOne of Indiana.. Call this guy ( Sam Tucker )... 1 - 260 - 350 - 1546 Sam is a buyer for them and a very good guy.. They give free estaments and they will take the so called junk trees and use them for pallets.. They don't pay as much as they would for Cherry or Oak.. but what ever you make off them is better than nothing at all you can buy some new trees with the money... It dose not hurt to leave some of the trunks on the ground but if you can make a little money off them to spend on other improvements why not.. give him a call see what he'll give you for them... tell him I sent you.. Tom Mesnard... he'll know me.

I hope this may help you out a little,
Tom

[fork horn]

Tom - I just went back and re-read this thread. Trying to be objective, I see how you could have taken offense to my earlier post. To be perfectly honest, I had completely forgotten about this discussion until you posted that "dig" on my latest article.

IMO, you come across a little strong with your opinions about wildlife and land management. You may find this hard to believe, but I've been accused of being the same way.;)

In all seriousness, there is probably a whole lot more that we agree on vs. disagree on regarding this subject. Life is to short to be mad at people you don't even know. Please consider this a cyber "olive branch"

Let the group hug / "kumbaya" replies begin.;)

Mike,

I am going to try to keep an open mind.. and I know this will blow you away.. I AGREE WITH YOU.. I think we most likely have way more incommon than we think.. I am sure there some things we don't.. lets agree to disagree on a few things and move on.. I hope to meet you and talk to you at the Ohio show.. I will hold off on my opinions till after I speak with you in person.. if you do the same I think we will be better off.. I don't know about friends but.. maybe we can try to get along alittle better... I am willing if you are. I hope to talk to you and see you in March...

[the junction]

Mike, You'r just to nice.
I agree Mike. He is using this board for free advertising.

[bowhunter1023]

I agree Mike. He is using this board for free advertising.

And you know the best part, I have a feeling that not a single one of our members would pay him to come out and set up their properties. At least not the ones I know.

[Monroe]

You might want to pay him to come out and find some sheds for you though...

[bowhunter1023]

You might want to pay him to come out and find some sheds for you though...

That was a cheap shot. :( Besides, my cousin is rolling with me next time! :D

[Bawana]

It was cheap, but awful good!!:yikes:

[fork horn]

I agree Mike. He is using this board for free advertising.


You show me one time where I posted my company name..?? Show me one time where I Posted my web site..?? I have given it to guys in privet messages.. that wanted to know more about me. To tell someone what you do for a living is not advertising.. To draw from experiences that I have lerned form.. IE talk about something similar from a property I may have set up in the past is not advertising. I had over 10 people on this forum ask me if I would be at the show.. so I posted that I would be at the Ohio show that is all.. I tell people what I do so they know what I base my opinoin on that is all.. I have had privet messages from many of the folks over (20) on this forum.. all good guys I might add.. I have alot of happy clients from Ohio. I had several guys from down there at my boot camp last Saturday the 16th.. If you have it all figured out well good for you. But I know a little about killing big deer and manageing habitat for wildlife I have set up 100's of properties in 8 states.. I came on here to share with others.. I told the guy MILO.. in this thread the name of a guy.. a timber buyer who may pay him for his logs.. how does this make me a bad guy.. I have added to therads on clover seed and pear trees never one time saying the name of "MY company".. how is that advertising.. What is the name of my company if I have been advertising in posts..??

Tom M.

[Bawana]

And "hooked on phonics" worked for you!!!!!!!!!!!

[mrex]

Tom - Many times, people like you and I come under "fire" on these public forums because we treat these discussions the same way we would a one - on - one conversation or at a seminar. A post on an internet forum is equivalent to grabbing the mic at a pep rally (or lynching).

I started a thread about my experience managing the property around my home. You entered the discussion with some advice based on your experience. What initially rubbed me the wrong way was that I wasn't looking for advice, so I fired back in a negative and condescending tone. You can only help people who want to be helped. Trust me on that one.

To help build credibility for your opinions, you continually remind us of your occupation and accomplishments in the woods. I understand why. It's difficult to speak from experience without first explaining where that experience comes from, however, it sometimes comes off on a forum as "bragging".

[coonskinner]

first time a beautiful hot doe comes around its off to the races...how do you control a horny buck???you can...by using a fence...:D

[fork horn]

[quote=mrex;241031]Tom - Many times, people like you and I come under "fire" on these public forums because we treat these discussions the same way we would a one - on - one conversation or at a seminar. A post on an internet forum is equivalent to grabbing the mic at a pep rally (or lynching).

I started a thread about my experience managing the property around my home. You entered the discussion with some advice based on your experience. What initially rubbed me the wrong way was that I wasn't looking for advice, so I fired back in a negative and condescending tone. You can only help people who want to be helped. Trust me on that one.

To help build credibility for your opinions, you continually remind us of your occupation and accomplishments in the woods. I understand why. It's difficult to speak from experience without first explaining where that experience comes from, however, it sometimes comes off on a forum as "bragging".[/quote

Thanks Mike,

Damn, didn't think I would ever say that.. But I just did. I don't claim to have all of the answers. But I have bow hunted and set up properties all over the Midwest for over 20 years... so I've seen alittle.. I just try to help others find success more consistently on mature deer. So I can't under stand when people act that way..

Tom Mesnard

[Bawana]

Tom you may not have directly posted your company name on here but it is in your profile, and it's real interesting.
"Over The past 25 years Tom has spent well over 250 days a year working on land management, hunting and food plot techniques."
It also says you graduated from high school in 1990. Does that mean you've been working 250 days a year since the 5th grade?
"The truth will set you free"

[mrex]

I don't claim to have all of the answers. But I have bow hunted and set up properties all over the Midwest for over 20 years... so I've seen alittle..

That's kind of what I'm talking about.^^^^

You and I don't seem to agree about the severity of the effects of human intrusion in a given "sanctuary". If I started my responses with, "and I have more entries in our states record book than anyone in Ohio history" or "my top 6 bucks net 1,000 inches" or "I was managing property when you were poopin' yellow", would that make you come over to my side? Probably not!

Do you see what I'm saying?

[mrex]

Tom you may not have directly posted your company name on here but it is in your profile, and it's real interesting.
"Over The past 25 years Tom has spent well over 250 days a year working on land management, hunting and food plot techniques."
It also says you graduated from high school in 1990. Does that mean you've been working 250 days a year since the 5th grade?
"The truth will set you free"

Very interesting Bawana.

Hey Tom - Your buddy Don Higgins has one impressive collection of heads. What was the controversy over the big buck?

[jackalope]

I don't know what people are more pissed about. The fact that he is subvertly pimping a product. Or they don't have a product to pimp themselves....

[CritterGitter]

Ya know, there are some trophy sparrows that really like the bird feeder, bird bath and pine trees in my back yard. Though, I am sure there are times when they wander elsewhere. :whistle:

Kyle

[the junction]

I don't know what people are more pissed about. The fact that he is subvertly pimping a product. Or they don't have a product to pimp themselves....
pop goes the jack in the box

[Bawana]

Pimping a product is one thing, flat out lying is another.

[mrex]

pop goes the jack in the box

I'm getting tired of your "light work" pugsly. ;)

[jackalope]

pop goes the jack in the box


I figured after 99 posts of people turning the handle and playing the same old song it was about time to pop off again...

[fork horn]

Tom you may not have directly posted your company name on here but it is in your profile, and it's real interesting.
"Over The past 25 years Tom has spent well over 250 days a year working on land management, hunting and food plot techniques."
It also says you graduated from high school in 1990. Does that mean you've been working 250 days a year since the 5th grade?
"The truth will set you free"


No lies...

Well sir that is what makes me alittle different than most guys my age.. I didn't play with toys much orplay little league ball. Yes I would spend every day all day in the woods on my family farm.. from about age 10. I would have gone sooner.. but Mom would not allow me to go alone before that.. there was a big river running across that property. But to answer your question Yeah.. I was planting food plots for wild life, no till with hand tools when I was 12 years old..(I have pictures) I did not go to the woods to play.. I made stands, transplanted trees, made funnels to push deer closer to my stands so I could watch them and try to take pictures. I spent 90% of my child hood observing wildlife and manipulating habitat. I would take pictures with a small kodak camera the animals looked like a fly. So yeah.. 250 days a year is a conservative estimate.. I have been in the field a little over 300 days a year since 2000. This is not just what I do.. I have loved and lived it since I was a very small boy.. "It is who I am".. not something I do for a hobby. I started setting up hunting land when I was 14 years old..( I had taken 3 one in a life time bucks by then) I started setting up land for money in 1990 when I got out of high school.. It has made up more than half of my income since about 1994 or so. I have been doing it full time since 2000.

So I don't know what to tell you.. that is just how it is...

Tom

[fork horn]

That's kind of what I'm talking about.^^^^

You and I don't seem to agree about the severity of the effects of human intrusion in a given "sanctuary". If I started my responses with, "and I have more entries in our states record book than anyone in Ohio history" or "my top 6 bucks net 1,000 inches" or "I was managing property when you were poopin' yellow", would that make you come over to my side? Probably not!

Do you see what I'm saying?

Mike,

Yeah I'm pick'n up what you are lay'n down.. BUT.. I feel that.. if it's a fact.. it is a fact as long as you say it in a way as to show why you are qualified to speak about it.. I came up in this industry the hard way no family to help me along I knew no one.. I remember when I had like 15 heads on the wall and no one would give me the time of day.. so now that I am here I have no broblem telling why I am.. ya know. NOT to brag but to say.. I worked my $%& to get here and I missed out on a lot of things growing up and in my adalt life.. so I could know what I know and to have taken the bucks I have taken.. they don't come easy any where in some places you have a better chance than others.. but a mature buck is no push over anywhere..!!

Tom

[fork horn]

Very interesting Bawana.

Hey Tom - Your buddy Don Higgins has one impressive collection of heads. What was the controversy over the big buck?

Mike,
Yeah Don has taken some monsters.. The big buck there are three on that wall that gross over 170.. but you are probably talking about the big non typical that scores 214" . Don has abook out that tells the hole story in his words. But in short the neighbors had seen the buck as well. They where mad when Don shot it. The neighbor called the DNR told a story no proof of anything mind you.. The DNR came and took the buck. Don got the buck back 30 days later.. it was an illegal seizure. It sucks I know kinda crazzy..

Tom

[Bawana]

If and it's a big IF You were in school in Michigan that would have taken 180 to 190 days a year. That only leaves 185 days total in a year. Of course I suppose you could have played hookie those other 65 to 70 days. And I'm sure you never left the farm for any other reason, and regardless of the weather you were out there working. I will be at the deer and turkey expo, but I won't waste my time at your booth.