interesting

[buckbacks]

i see on here people are always saying we dont want to be like WV. I'm not sure they know what's going on there. I did some research maybe its right maybe its not. correct me if I've mistaken.

WV is half the size of Ohio roughly.
WV has estimated 800,000 plus whitetails.
kill totals for 06 were 136,200
they have major problems with too many deer and need more control.
It's not all about big bucks to them right now.
they want the herd reduced drastically.
seems they are a smaller state, with more deer, and less number of kills,
Why is it like that? They need longer seasons and more tags i guess.
and yes they have 320,000 licensed hunters, almost as much as Ohio.
Where are they going wrong? doesn't seem like the plan is working.
Is the terrain a limiting factor?
why can't they kill 250,000 or 300,000 a year?

[WILEY1]

i see on here people are always saying we dont want to be like WV. I'm not sure they know what's going on there. I did some research maybe its right maybe its not. correct me if I've mistaken. Yeah, Buckbacks. I'm not sure who thinks we're going to turn into WV. But their crazy. WV has had their problems for decades. And it obviously isn't changing any time soon. However, change is usually better when it is slow. So you can reflect on your changes gradually, and make adjustments before you go too far, like PA.

WV is half the size of Ohio roughly.
WV has estimated 800,000 plus whitetails.
kill totals for 06 were 136,200
they have major problems with too many deer and need more control. WV hunters have a negative stigma attached to harvesting does. So most won't do it.
It's not all about big bucks to them right now. No, it's just about bucks. Always has been. Four points and six points.
they want the herd reduced drastically. They need it reduced drastically.
seems they are a smaller state, with more deer, They've probably got more woods than us. But our agriculture lets ours grow faster. and less number of kills,
Why is it like that? They need longer seasons and more tags i guess. They use rifles. They have no excuse. They need to quit looking for antlers through those scopes.
and yes they have 320,000 licensed hunters, almost as much as Ohio.
Where are they going wrong? doesn't seem like the plan is working.
Is the terrain a limiting factor? The terrain (for hunter success) and availible forage (for deer growth) are probably factors in the mountains. But the foothills are exactly the same as S/E Ohio. They should have similar deer.
why can't they kill 250,000 or 300,000 a year?
Good people over there. Love the state. Absolutely awesome mountains and flyfishing. They just refuse to shoot does. Too many deer. I'm not sure if the hunting video industry is going to help or hurt the up-and-coming youth of WV (will it increase the drive for antlers?). We shall see. Good Luck Mountaineers!

[bowhunter1023]

buckbacks...WILEY1 is on target here...and my guess is Dissident and a few of the other WV hunters here could back this up. I know a lot of WV hunters...in the dozens...they absolutely refuse to shoot does. I talk to guys all the time…“You get anything?”…“Yep, shot a 4-point Monday and a 6-point Thursday”. Had one guy show me 60 racks over his 40 some odd years of hunting, not one rack bigger than 125”. I will say this, here didn’t care there weren’t any big ones. He remembered the hunt from every rack, and that’s great. But I have had guys give me these big sob stories about how they don’t have any big deer. Well, don’t shoot every freakin’ thing with headgear you see then. You would think it was rocket-science.

WV may have close to the same amount of hunter we do, but I would guess that almost 70% of those numbers are gun only hunters. They have a much smaller bowhunting population than we do. At least in my experience…Like I said I know dozens of WV hunters, and only a few are dedicated bowhunters.

I alluded to Ohio turning into WV in a recent thread when I spoke about the entire state having a “brown and down” attitude. If we got to that point, we would eventually look like our neighbors.

[Winter Hawk]

Guys, I was born and have lived all of my 46 years in WV. I have been bowhunting since the age of 12 and harvested my share of *skin-heads* over the years. I can relatively quickly sum up the *game plan* that WV has lived by. Its all about MONEY......they have changed very little in their game management plan. Up until this past season you could legally harvest 5 bucks and if you bought all of the available stamps you could take a total of at least 11 deer. There are pockets around the state where the deer herd has taken a serious decline in population, not that we don't need to cut down on the population some but to reduce it to the quantity that exists now in some of these places is pathetic. My family when the kids were still living at home could consume around 4 deer in a years time. How many families do you think could seriously consume 11 deer? For many years the DNR issued "damage permits" to farmers to cut down on the number of deer living off of their crops. Many farmers wouldn't allow hunting of ANY kind on their property. The practice of gut-shooting a deer with a 22 rifle and letting it go off to die, with none of its meat utilized, was happening to often. Finally the DNR told the farmers that they wouldn't issue anymore damage permits unless they allowed someone to hunt their property. They didn't say open it up to ANYONE......just to allow someone to help with the population control. The pressure was now on the DNR by both insurance companies and the Farm Bureau to deplete the population and to do it quickly. This past season there were a few changes in the game regulations.....they did cut down the season buck limit to 3....which is a step in the right direction......but not quite there....yet. The money that was generated by the selling of all these *extra* deer tags over the years was to go towards purchasing more public land for the average Joe to be able to hunt on as well as doing studies to benefit the quality of game species. I don't think that any of these studies or land purchases has ever happened. I don't know where the money is going.......but it isn't being put back into the benefit of game species. Both my wife and I hunt in WV and Ohio. It costs a whole lot more to cross the river, but the cost is rewarded with quality animals to pursue. This past season I vowed not to purchase ANY of the extra tags that WV offers and we didn't. I, for one am not going to keep giving them money to *funnel* into whatever bottomless pit that this money has gone into any longer. The average survival age of a whitetail buck in WV is 18 months......and that is what seems to be satisfactory to MOST WV hunters. To me that is unacceptable......and I fear will continue to be the practice. I am NOT a trophy hunter by any means, but over the years I have evolved from a *killing machine* into much more of a hunter. I would like to think that I have a small chance of seeing more quality deer whether they end up in my freezer or not. That is why my wife and I continue to pay for just the opportunity to hunt somewhere where we KNOW that quality animals do exist. I have hunted in Ohio for the past 10 years or so and have killed only does.....BUT....I have saw some really NICE bucks, the opportunity and circumstances just didn't exist at the time for me to bring any of them back across the river with me. I do wish that WV would wisen up and have attended local meetings that are held annually to give your opinion to the wildlife biologists. It has become quite obvious to me that the best interest of the deer herd in WV isn't even on their priority list. They are kinda like *puppets* and are controlled from behind the scenes. They listen to you........but they don't HEAR what your saying. I hope and pray that Ohio doesn't follow the path that our state is on because if it does........you all will very well know of what I speak. Game management isn't *rocket science* and even someone like me can see where things are headed. It is very sad and frustrating to know what COULD BE........and have to accept what IS.

Winter Hawk

[traphunter]

It is very sad and frustrating to know what COULD BE........and have to accept what IS.

I know exactly what you mean.

[bowhunter1023]

I rest my case on WV's deer herd/management...Very well said Winter Hawk.

[buckbacks]

so you all are telling me hunters (attitudes) are to blame for the overpopulation? if herd size(not quality of bucks)is the problem, why don't they kill more.if the seasons longer are you saying still only bucks will be shot? If they had an anterless only period would most not hunt?

[MagnumMudMan]

Here is my perspective on the WV deer situation. I will start out saying that I have never hunted in WV. I do go down to Ritchie county several times each year to camp and ride atvs. What goes on in one county doesn't necessarily mean that the same for the entire state also. Also, we hunt with four guys from WV that come up to Ohio to hunt with us.

When we go down there to ride atvs and camp, we see a ton of does. It isn't uncommon on a fall ride to see 30 deer per ride. We rarely ever see a buck and the few bucks that I have seen were very small racked. Now granted, more mature bucks tend to be more seclusive, but you would think that you would see a few in the headlights around the roads and such (no, we don't spotlight them).

Out of the four guys that we hunt with, three of them are real good hunters. They will shoot a few does in WV in order to put some deer meat in the freezer and they don't try to shoot the smaller bucks. The fourth guy is sort of a slob and road hunts for bucks only (any buck) and often shoots them from the road and cuts the antlers off and leaves the rest. As you can tell, he is not my favorite person. Anyway, from listening to them, they have tried to convince the WV DNR that they need to cut the buck harvest and encourage more doe kills in selected areas, but they also say that the WV DNR is all about money and won't do it for fear of losing permit sales. They have said over and over that the mentality down there is that if it has a rack, it needs to be killed. That's just how it is down there. They also say that their season is plenty long, so I am not sure that's the answer either.

I will say this, a lot more deer are killed in WV than those numbers quoted above reflect. I know there is a lot of deer killed in Ohio that are not tagged in, but I think its a whole lot more down there.

[WILEY1]

so you all are telling me hunters (attitudes) are to blame for the overpopulation? if herd size(not quality of bucks)is the problem, why don't they kill more.if the seasons longer are you saying still only bucks will be shot? If they had an anterless only period would most not hunt?
Well as Winterhawk elluded to. You can only eat so many deer. And if your allowed to kill three bucks per person. That doesn't leave alot of room in the freezer for doe. Every state should have a one buck limit. Bottom line.

[buckbacks]

Well as Winterhawk elluded to. You can only eat so many deer. And if your allowed to kill three bucks per person. That doesn't leave alot of room in the freezer for doe. Every state should have a one buck limit. Bottom line.

I don't agree with every state because each one's different.
In SC we have 800,000 deer and kill about 200,000.
our deer will never get as big as yours even in 6 yrs(rack size)
Most trophies here mature to be a 130-140 with a few making 150
a booner has been killed only a handful.
in this case I think preserving the bucks for maturity doesn't really create the benefit it does for a "big buck state" like yours
and yes we shoot plenty of does.

[bowhunter1023]

Any of you guys...Out side of WV residents, ever been up the "Holler" in WV. I work for and oil & gas company so I have seen the most secluded spots WV has to offer...We have one lease that covers 6,00 acres. You can get to a spot that is 5-6 miles from the nearest road or house, find that in Ohio. (And we used to have one about 30 years ago that was 25,000 acres.) People kill deer in these places all the time and don't check them in. I have been some places...i.e. my trip tomorrow...that you don't go unless you know someone, or you are packing. And never after dark. You think Game Wardens are gonna risk their lives up those hollers...I doubt it. West Virginians kill a lot more deer than what shows up in the numbers. It happens in other states too, but I bet their numbers are really skewed.

[MagnumMudMan]

Any of you guys...Out side of WV residents, ever been up the "Holler" in WV.

I have been in some of those backwoods hollers. We usually ride with locals, so it isn't any problem there as they know everyone, but I sure hope they never leave me out there, I would never find my way out. ha.

[mrex]

You can get to a spot that is 5-6 miles from the nearest road or house, find that in Ohio.The woods behind my house are 1.5 miles deep and 7 miles wide. No roads or houses. I've only been lost in Ohio once. Well, maybe not lost but I didn't know where the hell I was. That was 20 years ago behind my house.

[mrex]

Every state should have a one buck limit. Bottom line.
This has certainly been one of the saving graces for Ohio.

I had to smile when I read your response to buckbacks.;)

[mrex]

Guys, I was born and have lived all of my 46 years in WV. I have been bowhunting since the age of 12 and harvested my share of *skin-heads* over the years. I can relatively quickly sum up the *game plan* that WV has lived by. Its all about MONEY......they have changed very little in their game management plan. Up until this past season you could legally harvest 5 bucks and if you bought all of the available stamps you could take a total of at least 11 deer. There are pockets around the state where the deer herd has taken a serious decline in population, not that we don't need to cut down on the population some but to reduce it to the quantity that exists now in some of these places is pathetic. My family when the kids were still living at home could consume around 4 deer in a years time. How many families do you think could seriously consume 11 deer? For many years the DNR issued "damage permits" to farmers to cut down on the number of deer living off of their crops. Many farmers wouldn't allow hunting of ANY kind on their property. The practice of gut-shooting a deer with a 22 rifle and letting it go off to die, with none of its meat utilized, was happening to often. Finally the DNR told the farmers that they wouldn't issue anymore damage permits unless they allowed someone to hunt their property. They didn't say open it up to ANYONE......just to allow someone to help with the population control. The pressure was now on the DNR by both insurance companies and the Farm Bureau to deplete the population and to do it quickly. This past season there were a few changes in the game regulations.....they did cut down the season buck limit to 3....which is a step in the right direction......but not quite there....yet. The money that was generated by the selling of all these *extra* deer tags over the years was to go towards purchasing more public land for the average Joe to be able to hunt on as well as doing studies to benefit the quality of game species. I don't think that any of these studies or land purchases has ever happened. I don't know where the money is going.......but it isn't being put back into the benefit of game species. Both my wife and I hunt in WV and Ohio. It costs a whole lot more to cross the river, but the cost is rewarded with quality animals to pursue. This past season I vowed not to purchase ANY of the extra tags that WV offers and we didn't. I, for one am not going to keep giving them money to *funnel* into whatever bottomless pit that this money has gone into any longer. The average survival age of a whitetail buck in WV is 18 months......and that is what seems to be satisfactory to MOST WV hunters. To me that is unacceptable......and I fear will continue to be the practice. I am NOT a trophy hunter by any means, but over the years I have evolved from a *killing machine* into much more of a hunter. I would like to think that I have a small chance of seeing more quality deer whether they end up in my freezer or not. That is why my wife and I continue to pay for just the opportunity to hunt somewhere where we KNOW that quality animals do exist. I have hunted in Ohio for the past 10 years or so and have killed only does.....BUT....I have saw some really NICE bucks, the opportunity and circumstances just didn't exist at the time for me to bring any of them back across the river with me. I do wish that WV would wisen up and have attended local meetings that are held annually to give your opinion to the wildlife biologists. It has become quite obvious to me that the best interest of the deer herd in WV isn't even on their priority list. They are kinda like *puppets* and are controlled from behind the scenes. They listen to you........but they don't HEAR what your saying. I hope and pray that Ohio doesn't follow the path that our state is on because if it does........you all will very well know of what I speak. Game management isn't *rocket science* and even someone like me can see where things are headed. It is very sad and frustrating to know what COULD BE........and have to accept what IS.

Winter HawkI wouldn’t throw your DNR under the bus. Your director is a close friend of mine and I can tell you his hands are tied. They know what needs to happen but the majority of the general public won’t support it. Or at least the politicians you elect wont vote to change it.

Any kind of change is always met with opposition. Until the masses in WV stand up and say “enough”, don’t look for any major changes.

[mrex]

I don't agree with every state because each one's different.
In SC we have 800,000 deer and kill about 200,000.
our deer will never get as big as yours even in 6 yrs(rack size)
Most trophies here mature to be a 130-140 with a few making 150
a booner has been killed only a handful.
in this case I think preserving the bucks for maturity doesn't really create the benefit it does for a "big buck state" like yours
and yes we shoot plenty of does.A trophy is relative to the area it was taken.

[Shed Head]

Could some of you guys come to the DNR reg. meetings in Parkersburg in March? Winter Hawk is right, the DNR listens but don't hear what we're saying. WV is improving some, with the concurent buck-doe seasons more hunters are letting smaller bucks walk and taging a doe. Five years ago if I saw a buck after rifle season I'd tell everyone I saw a nontypical buck, because they were rare. My wife and I have seen 7 different bucks on our farm since muzzleloading season and neighbors have seen some good bucks around also. Its starting to improve but WV still has a long way to go.

[mrex]

Winter Hawk is right, the DNR listens but don't hear what we're saying. Explain to us how game laws / bag limits are changed in West Virginia?

[Freedomrules3]

The WV herd has been mismanaged since the early 60's when they imported deer from Illinois. They implimented the bucks only gun season and during doe season they simply never let enough does be taken. they had the idea that a LOT of deer was what it was all about. The amount of food available from agriculture is a near zero in most araes of the state. the woods have been overpopulated and overbrowsed for 30 years. Timbering Oaks and other mast trees and replacing them with pines creates a disaster once the new forest reaches a certain age.
A kill any buck to get a buck has been imbedded in their heads forever and its a hard habit to break. sorta like generations of welfare receipients. things won't change until the hunters take things under control themselves. even today you have guys complaining of no big bucks yet post pictures of immature 4 and 6 points. the genetics are probably there in some areas but they never get to reach full potential. Poaching is over and above almost any state in the union and they poach bucks not does , no matter what size buck it is. its a mess and until they basically kill 80% of the herd and start all over again its gonna remain that way. hunters there don't want a 1 buck a year system and state they won't get out of bed for a doe once they are tagged out on their buck. its bad and will remain that way imo.

Post script:

In the 1980's a whole new can of worms was opened with the use of atv's... it took away the sanctuaries of the deer. what was once a place where very few went due to the difficulty of getting to that spot became a cakewalk for any hunter who wouldn't normally walk back half as far as they now ride. :)

[Winter Hawk]

I wouldn’t throw your DNR under the bus. Your director is a close friend of mine and I can tell you his hands are tied. They know what needs to happen but the majority of the general public won’t support it. Or at least the politicians you elect wont vote to change it.

Any kind of change is always met with opposition. Until the masses in WV stand up and say “enough”, don’t look for any major changes.

Mike, I know his hands are tied.....just as the previous ones hands were also, and the one before him. I also know that it is nothing but *human nature* to resist change. I'm not sure that the masses will ever have the Kahuna's to even suggest a change. When you go to the annual district meetings its just the same ol'......same ol'. I know that God gave me two ears and only one mouth for a reason, its because I should do TWICE as much listening as I do talking. I have heard some REALLY GOOD suggestions given at these meetings, and I have heard some of the MOST RIDICULOUS suggestions. The main problem that I have with the selling of the extra tags is that the money IS NOT used for what it was originally intended. Therefore, my wife and I will continue to purchase our non-resident licenses and drive across the river to spend our time in trees. Someone mentioned poaching in WV being a problem........and it most definately IS....but I am sure that the same thing goes on in Ohio. These people aren't hunters, to me they are nothing more than thieves. It has become such a frustration for me to attend these meetings that I have chosen to opt out. I also agree with the politicians that we elect NOT wanting to vote to change anything. But in all seriousness........how many of the politicians even remotely understand anything about wildlife management........they don't, the game biologists do, but once again their hands are tied. I have worked very closely in the past with some of our local game biologists on furbearers and have heard this "from the horses mouth". As I said before, it is just such a shame to know what could be......and having to live with what is. I would welcome ANY and ALL suggestions as to how we can begin to fix this problem in our state. I know that if given the proper amount of time to grow that the genetics exist in WV. I have the proof surrounding me on the walls as I type. Another problem with WV is that the timber companies have literally RAPED our state. My conscience won't allow me to lease the land that they have so demised and allow them to use MY money to pay the taxes on it. Its to the point over here that there isn't even hardly any private property over here left to hunt......locally anyways. Actually, we have permission to hunt more private acreage in Ohio than we do over here. I don't think that the majority of the population that hunts here in WV will "Smell the Roses" until they have to pick the thorns out. I hope I am wrong. I would however appreciate the DNR stepping up to the plate, both law enforcement and biologists and tell me and the rest of WV.....just what the heck they have been spending the money from the *extra* tags on for the past 10 to 15 years.......I don't think that is to much to ask, but everytime that I have I either get no response, or a line of BS. I don't mean to come across as against any one particular person or organization, but I do feel that I DESERVE an answer.

Winter Hawk

[Winter Hawk]

Explain to us how game laws / bag limits are changed in West Virginia?

I would hope that the *powers that be* would listen to the biologists that do surveys and are trained professionals. Do I think that this is what happens?
No

Winter Hawk

[mrex]

I would hope that the *powers that be* would listen to the biologists that do surveys and are trained professionals. Do I think that this is what happens?
No

Winter HawkUnfortunately, they listen to their constituents that elected them.

[Freedomrules3]

its unfortunate that the game laws are made by the legislative body, but in most states this is true. most of them haven't got a clue what needs done or doesn't. In MD they have a 10 year plan on deer management, which means they don't even look at the laws but every 10 years. I've been bandwagoning them to change this to at least every 3 years instead but to no availe. It just isn't one of the biggest concerns with todays politicians. The bear issue has gone back and forth here with liberals from the city wanting it banned. luckily every time they bring it up , another senator brings up a bill to introduce bears to every county in md and it ussually counteracts it.

I'm for the wildlife biologists and the dnr to make the choices on what becomes law concerning game laws.

I Love My Country But My Gov't Scares Me To Death :)

[stumphole]

It seems to me that the politicians are being politicians, that is, getting re-elected, their #1 priority. The resources and experts are there and available, let them do their job. That unfortunatley is not just a WV problem.