QDM...again

[mrex]

Kip’s Korner, Protecting Yearling Bucks, February 2006


Many hunters unfamiliar with Quality Deer Management (QDM) incorrectly assume QDM is only about large-racked bucks. Many also feel antler point restrictions (APRs) are synonymous with QDM. Pieces from both of these beliefs can be parts of QDM programs but QDM is about much more than just antlers or APRs.
In simplest terms QDM involves balancing the deer herd with the habitat and having deer - bucks and does - in multiple age classes. Determining and achieving the right number of deer for the habitat is a topic for another discussion and this article will focus on multiple age classes of deer. Most areas have a good age structure for the doe population as it is common for hunters to harvest does 1.5-6.5+yrs. This age structure exists because of traditional deer management practices where hunters focused much of their harvest pressure on bucks and allowed does to survive and fill multiple age classes.
Very few places have this same age structure for the buck population. Typical buck populations include a high percentage (60-80%) of yearlings, a small percentage (10-30%) of 2.5yr olds, an even smaller percentage (5-10%) of 3.5yr olds and almost no 4.5+yr olds. This young age structure is a direct result of harvest pressure by hunters. In the not-too-distant past most hunters focused intense pressure on yearling bucks and removed the majority of that age class. In historical Pennsylvania for example, hunters routinely removed over 80% of the yearling age class on an annual basis! With that removal rate, less than 1% of Pennsylvania’s bucks ever reached maturity.
Quality Deer Management helps correct this imbalance by protecting young bucks and allowing them to survive into the older age classes. Quality Deer Management isn’t about protecting bucks until they are 5.5yrs old - that’s trophy management. Quality Deer Management, in simplest terms is about protecting yearling bucks. Yearling bucks are the easiest adult deer to harvest, but if hunters pass them and allow them to reach 2.5yrs, they become a little smarter and some will avoid hunters and reach 3.5yrs. Some of those will then avoid hunters and reach 4.5yrs, etc. Pretty soon you end up with a deer population that has bucks in multiple age classes even while allowing bucks 2.5yrs and older to be harvested. A complete age structure is good for deer and great for hunters.
The big question then is what is the best way to protect yearling bucks? There are several techniques to protect yearlings and they all have advantages and disadvantages. Antler point restrictions are a common technique and they involve establishing a minimum number of points a buck must possess to be eligible for harvest. This minimum number should be established with the aid of a biologist and with local harvest data. Advantages of APRs include they are simple and are easy for state agencies to enforce. The disadvantage of APRs is the number of antler points is a poor predictor of animal age. Yearling bucks can have a rack ranging from short spikes to 10+ points. Therefore it can be difficult with APRs to protect the majority of the yearling age class while still making other age classes available for harvest. Managers may unintentionally focus harvest pressure on yearlings with larger racks or protect older age classes. However, because of APRs simplicity and enforceability, they are the most common buck harvest restriction discussed and implemented by state agencies.
Antler width restrictions are another technique and they involve establishing a minimum width of antler spread a buck possess have to be eligible for harvest. Again, this width should be established with the aid of a biologist and from local harvest data. The premise of a width restriction is few yearling bucks attain an outside antler spread of more than 15-16 inches. Hunters can estimate a buck’s antler spread by viewing where the antlers are in relation to an animal’s forward pointed ears. Ear tip to tip distance is approximately 15-16 inches for northern deer and slightly less for southern deer. Therefore, if a buck’s antlers are as wide as or wider than his ears, there is a good chance he is at least 2.5yrs. The advantage of a width restriction is it is a much better predictor of whether a buck is 1.5 or 2.5+yrs and therefore can do a better job protecting yearlings. The disadvantage of a width restriction is it is slightly more difficult to determine the legal status of a buck in the wild (vs. APR) and it can be more difficult for state agencies to enforce. A width restriction is more biologically sound than an APR and therefore is commonly used on private lands where managers have more control over the deer management program.
A third technique is age restrictions based on body characteristics. This technique involves establishing the age classes available for harvest (2.5+yrs for this discussion), and hunters then use body – not antler – characteristics to determine eligible bucks. Distinguishable body changes occur as deer progress through age classes and this technique requires hunters to be skilled in identifying those changes. The advantage of this technique is it is an excellent predictor of animal age and therefore you can either target or protect multiple age classes of bucks. The disadvantage of this technique is it requires time and practice for hunters to learn the body characteristics of each age class and be able to accurately estimate the age of live bucks in the wild. This technique is currently practiced on some of the most intensively managed properties throughout the country and is the future of deer management for many hunters. This technique is a lot of fun and is very rewarding for true whitetail enthusiasts. Age restrictions are by far the most biologically sound approach and are therefore used for the majority of intensive management programs. Due to the skill involved and practice required by hunters this approach is most commonly used by private land managers and unfortunately is rarely even discussed by state agencies.
Two final techniques are “earn-a-buck” programs and buck harvest quotas. Both of these programs restrict the number of bucks that get harvested rather than the age of bucks that get harvested. Earn-a-buck programs are typically used in areas of high deer density where managers must force hunters to remove additional antlerless deer. The premise of this technique is a hunter must harvest an antlerless deer to receive (or validate) his/her buck tag. A hunter that doesn’t help the management program by harvesting a doe is not permitted to shoot a buck. This technique protects some bucks because not all hunters will have the opportunity to harvest a buck after harvesting an antlerless deer. Buck harvest quotas are similar to what most states currently use to limit the antlerless harvest. With this technique, managers issue a limited number of buck tags and thus some bucks are protected because not all hunters receive a tag.
There are many ways to protect numbers or specific age classes of bucks. No technique is perfect but they all have advantages. The challenge is to educate hunters on the benefits and limitations of each and achieve broad-based support for the selected technique. Hunter support is crucial and it can take a management program to the next level or dump it in the gutter. In general, the most biologically sound techniques provide the most benefits but all of the techniques can improve a deer management program when applied correctly.
So, is QDM just about large-racked bucks and are APRs synonymous with QDM? The first answer is obviously “no”. Quality Deer Management is about balancing the deer herd with the habitat and having bucks and does in multiple age classes. You end up with larger bucks because they are a byproduct of good deer management. The second answer is also “no”; APRs are merely one technique to get bucks into multiple age classes. Antler point restrictions are not the most biologically sound approach, but as Pennsylvania and other states have shown, they can be effective when applied correctly.

[ohiosam]

Interesting. However in real-life situtations I find many hunters are not good judges of antlers. Saw 3 examples of it this fall.
1. Was out in a field of pumpkins with a friend when 3 bucks walked into the field at about 50-60 yards. The best was about an 8 point with 16-17" spread, 5-6" tines. The others were small 6 pointers. The next week I was at his place and he was telling another guy about the huge buck we saw. This guy isn't a BSer he really thought it was big.
2. 1st day of gun season I see 2 bucks 100-125 yards in front of me. 1st is a 1 1/2 year 6 or 8 the second was a mature 1/2 rack. they went past a buddy who shot at the bigger one. I said it was a 1/2 rack, he said "no it had both sides and was real wide". When we found the deer it had a heavy 6 point right beam the left beam was deformed and went straight up about 8" and forked.
3. Buddy of mine shot a nice 13 point 140 class buck, he told me he had no idea it was that big until it was on the ground.
All three of these guys are hunters that spend a moderate amount of time in the woods. All had clear views of the antlers. I'm sure if they had to they would become better judges. Many of the guys that only get to hunt a few days year might have real problems with antler restrictions and especially beginners.

[coonskinner]

i do not agree with having to harvest a doe before a buck...most hunters in this state do not have the golden op. as some who have the money to own their own land...using every bit of tech. possible and plots that makes it much easier to harvest their doe early...now a guy just starting out hunting has a 140 class deer come by an stand broadside at 15 yds...he's hunted a couple years an never kilt a deer...he has to let it walk...with his money an the way he has tuh hunt...that mighta been his buck of a lifetime...mike how many have you kilt over 130...an how many ops do you get a year...yes you can love this way cause its a pc. of cake for you...but all do not fit that mold...most hunters dont fit that mold...an the herd in ohio is not in trouble...it keeps gettin better yr. in year out...you want tuh manage for a big buck only an one behind every tree...that will take the thrill outta finally gettin the big boy...theres gotta be a better way...qdm must be run by the odnr an not individuals out to further a career to be the next chuck adams...and it has to be done for all hunters in general...and for the deer herd...not just for a bunch that want to stack up a bunch of deer for profit...thats how i see a lot pushin this...leave it up to the odnr to regulate the herd...most hunters may never get a doe...then see a nice deer and let it go...maybe the only op. they will ever get at a big boy...you need to wear those shoes...:D

[countyroad]

That's a good read. Whether you're for or against any type of QDM it is important to know the points of argument.
Where I hunt I would like to have more does harvested and allow more young bucks to walk.
This past weekend I saw 28 deer, 22 of which were fawn, one was a yearling buck, and the other 5 were yearling does or older. Of all the fresh tracks I saw in the mudd, not one was large.
My dad has harvested a doe, button buck and an 8 pointer on the 40 acres we hunt. The neighbor has had 2 does and a 13 point harvested off of his 300 acres. That is what we know was harvested off the neighbors.

[Lundy43123]

An earn a buck program may lead to reduced bag limits and shorter seasons.

I don't know that but if you do the math it's possible.

Many, many, hunters today only kill ONE or NO deer per year. 400,000 - 500,000 hunters and just over 200,000 kill.

If a requirement were in place to kill a doe first to earn the opportunity to take a buck, I believe many would kill a doe that normally would not shoot one especially if they only want one deer per year, just for the opportunity to take a buck.

Many may say that is exactly the point, shoot more does, but at what expense. Do you want an increase of 100,000 more deer removed?

The deer herd is managed to accommodate as many interests as possible, herd health and hunters being just a couple of them. The hunting experience as a whole for the hunters seems to be pretty good right now, with little complaining beyond just a minute minority.

I do see merit and agree that an antler restriction program would be fun and would lead to an increase in doe harvest as a ratio to bucks taken as well as increase the age structure of the available bucks

[lacure]

This is a good read, but I have a couple of questions. First, it seems very opinionated (except for harvest stats, it does not provide factual information that a more diverse age structure in a deer herd is beneficial to the herd).
Here's the thing...I am all for letting young deer grow up. I pass on numerous bucks every season in hopes of killing a mature buck with handsome headgear. However, that is my opinion and my choice. I cannot "bash" those who take deer legally (as long as they do not kill a button on one day and then complain about not seeing mature bucks the next).

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that you can dress it up any way you want, but QDM does not benefit a deer herd except to allow bucks to grow older (and what is the benefit to the herd of allowing this to happen) in hopes of growing larger racks. It is indeed about rack size.

I do not have a problem with QDM in general (feeders/food plots is a different story), but let's be honest about why people pursue it.

[stumphole]

Some folks my not agree with it or understand the program, but it does work. My experience hunting with a friend in Mississippi who has put together with a group with about 3500 ac., (no it's not a high fence operation, all fair chase, no fences) they started almost 20 years ago. At that time the deer harvested from the property were mainly bucks, most of which were spikes and forks. They, with the MS DNR started mananging their herd by instituting an "Earn a Buck" program and antler width restrictions. As a guest, before you can take a buck you must take a doe, and there are fines for taking a buck under their rack restrictions. They also reduce the doe population on the recomendation of the state biologist if they haven't reached the doe harvest goals. They are now producing larger racked mature bucks and the overall health of their herd is excellent. Just this year they were awarded for their conservation efforts by the state. Point is it does work and you can't argue the results of their efforts.

[MagnumMudMan]

On my buddies place that we hunt, we don't necessarily follow an antler point or width restriction for our own form of QDM. We basically put in a rule, if you shoot a buck, it needs to be a trophy to you and therefore, is worthy of mounting. If you want a deer for meat, shoot a doe. This year we have killed one doe, one button buck (my buddy swore it was a doe, he even looked for the buttons), a fourteen point and a 10 point. Also, the landowner (other buddy) killed a doe this past weekend that ended up being a buck that had dropped its rack due to an injury. Almost everyone that bowhunted there this year at least seen a nice 3 1/2 year old deer or better. We can't control what the neighbors shoot, but we can control what we shoot and it has been working so far.

[ohiosam]

I'll not argue the merits of leaving more young bucks walk. I'm uncomfortable with goverment imposed restrictions at this time. However on private property I have no problems with individuals imposing what ever restrictions they want.

[bowhunter1023]

lacure...Obviously you don't but into the whole QDM thing. But if you do look into it, you can see how it does benefit the herd, and the habitat. I do agree that QDM is heavily focused on growing big racks. However, shooting does and trying to achieve that golden 1-to-1 ratio, is also a big part of the scheme as well. If you reduce the herd, which will happen by removing does, then you reduce the strain on the habitat. It brings the herd closer to the carrying capacity of the land. By bringing the herd numbers closer to the ideal carrying capacity, you enable each member of the herd to get the most benefit of the habitat. This is simply biology/ecology. No real need for facts. If you and 25 of your friends order 5 pizzas, and me and 10 friends order 5 pizzas, whose gonna eat better?

With that being said, I do not agree with any sort of restrictions whether it be points, width, inches, or earn a buck. I don’t agree for one reason, as a hunter you should be able to make the choice as to what you shoot. Coonie is right. What if you are in your stand for an hour on opening morning and here comes that 160” 10-point you have been watching all summer? You got pics, video, and shed. But you gotta let it walk because QDM wants me to shoot a doe? Even as much as I agree with the need to shoot does, I do not think that earn-a-buck is for the sport.

On my 80 acres we have harvested 3 mature does, and only 1 buck, because that was the goal. I allow any buck to be shot if it is your first, i.e. my cousin’s 5-point. If you have killed one, then it must be at least an 8-point out to his ears. Now I stated earlier I didn’t agree with restrictions, and no I’m not a hypocrite. I just don’t agree with State regulated restrictions. I don’t think it is their business to tell me what I can, or cannot shoot in terms of bucks. I choose to manage my property because I have seen the results.

I think QDM is like a lot of other things/ideas in life, its good in theory but has its flaws. QDM should be left up to the individual hunter/land owner.

[Kent Dorfman]

For private land management, QDM is a no brainer. What amazes me is every time mrex puts these ideas in front of us there is usually a backlash of responses about what the ODNR should do.

I am yet to see anyone say that QDM should be the law of the land. What I read in this thread is a well thought out idea that may or may not apply to all of us.

[stumphole]

For private land management, QDM is a no brainer. What amazes me is every time mrex puts these ideas in front of us there is usually a backlash of responses about what the ODNR should do.

I am yet to see anyone say that QDM should be the law of the land. What I read in this thread is a well thought out idea that may or may not apply to all of us.
Well said! I am sure that I'm NOT qualified to say what the ODNR should or should not do. I do hope they have a long term, well defined, "Big Picture" goal for the herd and a long term strategic plan in place. It would be interesting to know what the long range plan is and what they are doing to implement it. Perhaps then the discussion could be a well informed debate, which I'm sure there would be, debate that is!

[lacure]

bowhunter 1023,
I think you misread my post...I am not against QDM. I do buy into it. I was simply stating that the bottom line point is that it is initiated to help grow larger bucks and increase the opportunity to harvest those bucks (1 to 1 ratio means more aggressive rutting activity).

I have posted my educational background out here before, so I am not going to bore anyone with that. I will just say that I know far more than I probably should about ecology and biology and understand carrying capacity in great detail. The problem is people do not know how or have the time to truly gauge the carrying capacity of a specific property. This is critical in understanding how close the resident herd is to that capacity and whether or not the numbers are too high and in need of "shrinking." When the herd needs to be cut, QDM is a great approach.

I think many people, including myself, do some form or part of QDM and I think it is a good thing. I just think we need to call a spade a spade when we discuss this.

[MagnumMudMan]

I think that if you want to look at how NOT to manage a buck population, you need to look no farther than south of the river to West Virginia. They are allowed two bucks down there and just about every legal buck gets shot during the season. We have four guys that come up to hunt Ohio season for a chance at a descent buck. One of the guys is retired and hunted quite a bit this year during WV deer season. He has seen well over 100 does and real small bucks, but not one that had anything near a respectable rack. Granted, there are some nice deer in WV and the habitat is somewhat different than Ohio (less cropland), but it is rare to see a deer make it to 2 1/2 years old down there, let alone 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 whereas they would have a nice rack.

[bowhunter1023]

lacure...I wasn't meaning to attack you or your statement, sorry if it came off that way. I just misunderstood the meaning of your post. I was simply addressing this statement:

The bottom line, in my opinion, is that you can dress it up any way you want, but QDM does not benefit a deer herd except to allow bucks to grow older (and what is the benefit to the herd of allowing this to happen) in hopes of growing larger racks. It is indeed about rack size.

I just took that as lack of support for QDM. But obvioudly you agree that letting little bucks walk makes for bigger bucks in the years to come. That could be considered practicing QDM. To me it just makes sense to let them walk if you want to shoot bigger bucks...I don't consider that practicing QDM. There is much more to QDM than that, and until you (Not you personally but anyone person.) are employing a majority of the tactics associated with it, its hard to say you are truely "practicing" QDM.

We let the little one walk, and shoot does, but I still think we are farm from being a true QDM farm. This debate will rage on for years. And I know I don't have the right answers for the for my neighbor, for you, or for the State. However, I have an idea of what I want to accomplish, and though I lack a degree in wildlife biology, I do have a fair idea of what I need to do to make that happen.

[lacure]

Bowhunter,
I did not take offense, just wanted to clarify. I appreciate your insight and posts...you tell it like it is!

Magnum,
I agree...WVa is in bad shape. One of my hunting buddies is from WVa and now lives here in Ohio. He said that you can kill 5-7 bucks a year, depending on season, weapon, etc.!!! That is CRAZY!

I think another big issue in states like PA and WVa is allowing gun hunting during the rut...that is a HUGE strain on the buck population.

[hunTer06]

i do not agree with having to harvest a doe before a buck

I dont neccessarly disagree with an earn a buck program, but I think it will add to the already large number of deer that are NOT BEING TAGGED IN. People will shoot small bucks at long ranges, thinking they are does, then they are stuck with a difficult situation. Or how about the guy that hasnt killed his doe yet and a huge 180'' buck walks by:16suspect1:

I think the same for an antler restriction. Sounds like a good idea, and it may do great things for the deer herd. But again, there is going to be an increase in untagged deer for sure. People accidently shooting 7 pointers in an 8 point restriction zone, and so on.

One of the biggest things the DNR should be concerned about in my opinion is untagged deer. They should somehow get different reasons from people on why they didnt go and tag their deer. Some probably just dont want to mess with driving to a check in station, waiting in line, then finally getting a metal tag on a little spike that had 4 inch antlers, and now he cant kill another buck.

Well I dont mean to ramble on, I kinda jumped subjects there, but I do believe that untagged deer can be a big problem with trying to calculate deer population numbers, and I know the DNR gives for some, but they probably dont realize how big of a number it actually is.

[bowhunter1023]

I hate to reiterate because I have told this story before, but for the sake of the thread I will repeat:

I was buying right-of-way in West Virginia during their first rifle season, when I was given a sob story about not seeing any big bucks after the guy looked at my trail pics. He said they practiced QDM. I asked what they did and he said they shot 9 spikes off 250 acres last year! No wonder you don’t see any good bucks in WV, they all get shot before they have a chance to get big. WV is by a vast majority a “Brown & Down if it moves its dead” state. I have buddies from WV and they will be the first to tell you it drives them crazy.

Rip can attest to this probably, but Wood County because it has some agriculture, and some of the more mountainous counties do grow nice deer. But, by and large the habitat and pressure is not the same as it is in the majority of the state.

[mrex]

I dont neccessarly disagree with an earn a buck program, but I think it will add to the already large number of deer that are NOT BEING TAGGED IN. People will shoot small bucks at long ranges, thinking they are does, then they are stuck with a difficult situation. Or how about the guy that hasnt killed his doe yet and a huge 180'' buck walks by:16suspect1:

I think the same for an antler restriction. Sounds like a good idea, and it may do great things for the deer herd. But again, there is going to be an increase in untagged deer for sure. People accidently shooting 7 pointers in an 8 point restriction zone, and so on.

One of the biggest things the DNR should be concerned about in my opinion is untagged deer. They should somehow get different reasons from people on why they didnt go and tag their deer. Some probably just dont want to mess with driving to a check in station, waiting in line, then finally getting a metal tag on a little spike that had 4 inch antlers, and now he cant kill another buck.

Well I dont mean to ramble on, I kinda jumped subjects there, but I do believe that untagged deer can be a big problem with trying to calculate deer population numbers, and I know the DNR gives for some, but they probably dont realize how big of a number it actually is.

I agree with 06 that a lot of deer aren’t getting checked in for various reasons. How do you folks feel about “party hunting”? By party hunting I mean, if 5 guys in a group have five tags, one guy kills 3 but they all check a deer in.

IMO, this would bring a bunch of deer out of the “back barn” but there’s certainly some downside.

[MagnumMudMan]

I agree with 06 that a lot of deer aren’t getting checked in for various reasons. How do you folks feel about “party hunting”? By party hunting I mean, if 5 guys in a group have five tags, one guy kills 3 but they all check a deer in.

IMO, this would bring a bunch of deer out of the “back barn” but there’s certainly some downside.

IMO, I am not really for that. The guy that shoots the deer should be the one to tag it. With that said, I think if you want to eliminate some of the "back barn" deer that don't get checked in, you need to take away some of the hassle. I think first we need to understand why do we check in the deer. Is it so that the DNR can get an accurate count of the deer killed or is it to get an accurate count and catch some folks in illegal activity, ie checking in deer killed with a rifle, non-hunters checking in deer for hunting relatives, etc. In my opinion, a lot of deer don't get checked in due to the hassle factor. Load the deer up, drive to a check station, find out its closed (happenned to us more than once), drive to another station across the county, wait in line with people buying beer and snacks, finally fill out the paperwork with a tired and cranky clerk, get deer checked in, take it home and rehang it. I really don't have the answer to how to make it easier, but I think if you are just trying to get an accurate count, there has to be a simplier way.

I heard the arguements against phone check in that it would make poaching easier, but I think currently poachers just don't check the deer in anyhow and they get processed in the back barn anyway.

[brock ratcliff]

I believe party hunting should be legal in Ohio. I dont know how many times I have heard a man say he killed a deer and so and so checked it in. It makes no sense to me that if an older man wants to buy a tag and apply it to a deer he did not shoot, he is a criminal. However, crop damage permits are issued liberally. I understand that at one time it was important to limit the number of deer taken per individual to insure everyone equal hunting opportunity, but with crop damage permits being issued, does this still make sense?

I am a cold-blooded killer. For what ever reason, I love to shoot deer. I will often hunt out of state just to get my fix. It aggrevates me to no end that the DOW says they want to reduce doe numbers, yet do not allow party hunting.

Another option I would like to see looked into would be the way IOWA issues tags. They have a set number of deer (does) they want taken from a county and that is the number of tags they sell. For example, if a "passive" hunter wants to do a little deer hunting, he can buy one tag. A cold-blooded killer like me can purchase ten antlerless tags if I choose, that makes sense to me. Party hunting is legal as well.

I just called me a cold-blooded killer------hehe

[Big H]

Party hunting already goes on in this state, probably more than anyone thinks.
Legal or not, it is WIDELY practiced. It irritates me is when an individual has shot several different bucks, and says "they were all tagged in". :nono:

[CritterGitter]

QDM.......you all have my head spinning in this stuff.

I disagree with state agency mandated restrictions on what a hunter can harvest.

I agree that more young bucks should be passed up(raising my hand here, yes guilty as charged, My name is Kyle and I shot a young buck).

The only change that I would like to see in how the state of Ohio manages the deer herd would be to change the terms for out-of-state hunters. I think the most fair way to do this would be to reciprocate regs. If Iowa charges $240.00 for an out of state buck tag, then any Iowa hunter wanting to hunt Ohio has to pay that amount. I don't think the state will go for that. However, with the increased hunting opportunities they have provided the harvest #'s are going to go up. With the increased exposure of trophy bucks harvested(Adams County) the popularity is going to go up. It's a simple law of supply and demand. Word is out that Ohio has lots of big bucks so out of staters are going to be willing to pay more to hunt here.

Lindy posted in a different thread that Ohio's population was estimated to be 600,000 prior to 2006 hunting seasons and the pace is for a total harvest of 240,000. That would leave us with 360,000. So, then with more out of staters arriving next October do you feel there should be a change or not? I do.

I think it should be about limiting access to buck tags and not about limiting hunters opportunities to harvest any deer of his/her choice. Maybe and dare I say it, Ohio should consider a drawing for out-of-state deer tags. Just a thought. Again, I don't mean to bang on out-of-staters, but have you seen the prices for say, Iowa, Illinoise, Kansas, Missouri for us good ole Ohioans to buy a tag? Yikes!!!

Kyle

[Lundy43123]

I dislike party hunting and everything about it.

I know that party hunting plays a big role in many of the drives during the gun season in the area I hunt.

In these drives I KNOW it leads to many, wounded and non recovered deer. If 2 deer or 20 deer run past a stander they try and shoot them all. Many of these guys used to have magazine extenders on their shotguns prior to the 3 shot rule. Now I think they have removed the extenders and just use 5 shots:eek:

[ohiosam]

I agree with 06 that a lot of deer aren’t getting checked in for various reasons. How do you folks feel about “party hunting”? By party hunting I mean, if 5 guys in a group have five tags, one guy kills 3 but they all check a deer in.

IMO, this would bring a bunch of deer out of the “back barn” but there’s certainly some downside.

I have a hard time with the party hunting concept. I hunt in a group, if you kill a deer you tag it, even with a crop damage tag. After you check it in if you want to give it away fine but it gets checked in in the name of the guy who killed it.
What I would worry about is deer being tagged by people who never set foot in the woods. Yes I know it happens now, but I don't think we need to encourage this behavior.

[bowhunter1023]

I think it should be about limiting access to buck tags and not about limiting hunters opportunities to harvest any deer of his/her choice. Maybe and dare I say it, Ohio should consider a drawing for out-of-state deer tags. Just a thought. Again, I don't mean to bang on out-of-staters, but have you seen the prices for say, Iowa, Illinoise, Kansas, Missouri for us good ole Ohioans to buy a tag? Yikes!!!

Kyle

I am proud live in such a great state such as Ohio. One with a large population of good, honest, hard-working, red-blooded Americans. One with the greatest college football team in the land. (O, sorry got sidetracked;) ). And one that has a great deer herd with quality numbers and genetics.

Now some one from Iowa, or Illinois, or Kansas could probably say the same thing. And for me to hunt there would require a lot of extra $$$. I say run it to the out-of-staters. This state is one of the most hunting tradition rich states in the whole country, so pissing off a few out-of-staters isn't gonna hurt things all that much. You wanna come here and kill our deer, then whats it worth to ya. You don't see alot of guys flocking to WV, PA, or Michigan for the genetics. But by God there are tons of those guys coming here for the genetics.

Sorry that was a highjack moment...but just my $.02.

[Lundy43123]

Lindy posted in a different thread that Ohio's population was estimated to be 600,000 prior to 2006 hunting seasons and the pace is for a total harvest of 240,000. That would leave us with 360,000.
Kyle


Using round numbers yes, if the beginning estimate was correct and the kill reaches 240,000.

But then you must account for the new deer being born. If we use an VERY unrealistic buck to doe ratio of 3-1, you would have 240,000 does giving birth next spring. If we use just a one fawn average, which is low, per doe we are right back at 600,000 deer next spring. If we use 1.5 fawns per doe, a more realistic number, we are at 720,000 deer, hit a few with cars, poach a few, coyote's get some, crop damage permits, natural causes, we're back in the
625,000 range.

[mrex]

QDM.......you all have my head spinning in this stuff.

I disagree with state agency mandated restrictions on what a hunter can harvest.

I agree that more young bucks should be passed up(raising my hand here, yes guilty as charged, My name is Kyle and I shot a young buck).

The only change that I would like to see in how the state of Ohio manages the deer herd would be to change the terms for out-of-state hunters. I think the most fair way to do this would be to reciprocate regs. If Iowa charges $240.00 for an out of state buck tag, then any Iowa hunter wanting to hunt Ohio has to pay that amount. I don't think the state will go for that. However, with the increased hunting opportunities they have provided the harvest #'s are going to go up. With the increased exposure of trophy bucks harvested(Adams County) the popularity is going to go up. It's a simple law of supply and demand. Word is out that Ohio has lots of big bucks so out of staters are going to be willing to pay more to hunt here.

Lindy posted in a different thread that Ohio's population was estimated to be 600,000 prior to 2006 hunting seasons and the pace is for a total harvest of 240,000. That would leave us with 360,000. So, then with more out of staters arriving next October do you feel there should be a change or not? I do.

I think it should be about limiting access to buck tags and not about limiting hunters opportunities to harvest any deer of his/her choice. Maybe and dare I say it, Ohio should consider a drawing for out-of-state deer tags. Just a thought. Again, I don't mean to bang on out-of-staters, but have you seen the prices for say, Iowa, Illinoise, Kansas, Missouri for us good ole Ohioans to buy a tag? Yikes!!!

Kyle
Not a bad idea Kyle, however, not many hunters are coming from Iowa or Kansas to deer hunt in Ohio. The vast majority of our non resident hunters are coming from WV, PA, MI, NY and the southeast where the hunting is not nearly as good as it is here.

[Dissident]

here in wv we used to be able to kill 5 bucks but the dnr has lowered it to 3 thinking it will help the deer herd some. i still think that 3 bucks is alittle high. the dnr has nearly doubled prices of extra doe and buck tags to supposedly reduce the harvest numbers. on paper this might seem true but i kno of several hunters who dont bother to buy the extra tags now and dont check the deer in feeling the state is just out for more money. i feel some kind of improved qdm is needed now, on the private farm i hunt we dont take a buck unless the rack is to the ears or better. therefore, due to the lak of decent deer in wv we usually only harvest a couple out of our party of 4 or 5 on a good year. each of the past two years we ve let 15-20 smaller bucks walk. in our estimation only 1 or 2 will make it till next season due to neighboring farms taking anything with horns and lack of cover on our land.

[ohiosam]

Using round numbers yes, if the beginning estimate was correct and the kill reaches 240,000.

But then you must account for the new deer being born. If we use an VERY unrealistic buck to doe ratio of 3-1, you would have 240,000 does giving birth next spring. If we use just a one fawn average, which is low, per doe we are right back at 600,000 deer next spring. If we use 1.5 fawns per doe, a more realistic number, we are at 720,000 deer, hit a few with cars, poach a few, coyote's get some, crop damage permits, natural causes, we're back in the
625,000 range.

Given normal reproduction and survivability rates if we kill (by all methods)half of the does every year the herd will continue to grow.

[MagnumMudMan]

Again, I don't mean to bang on out-of-staters, but have you seen the prices for say, Iowa, Illinoise, Kansas, Missouri for us good ole Ohioans to buy a tag? Yikes!!!

Kyle

Yes, I had planned on going to Iowa a few years ago until they jacked their license fees way up and we weren't even guaranteed a buck tag. I wasn't driving that far and paying that kind of cash for a doe.

On the other side of that coin, my Dad is 63. He spent the first 61 years of his life in Ohio and paid his fair share of taxes in those years. Two years ago, he moved into Michigan to live with his girlfriend. Should he no longer be able to hunt in Ohio without getting lucky and drawing a tag? I do like the idea of price reciprocity though.

[mrex]

Using round numbers yes, if the beginning estimate was correct and the kill reaches 240,000.

But then you must account for the new deer being born. If we use an VERY unrealistic buck to doe ratio of 3-1, you would have 240,000 does giving birth next spring. If we use just a one fawn average, which is low, per doe we are right back at 600,000 deer next spring. If we use 1.5 fawns per doe, a more realistic number, we are at 720,000 deer, hit a few with cars, poach a few, coyote's get some, crop damage permits, natural causes, we're back in the
625,000 range.I think coyotes are tagging more than we think. A few years ago, I let the DOW guys dart and radio collar a pile of adult does here on my place for a fawn mortality study. The following two springs they were able to catch and collar 30+ fawns (per year). The first year they lost 6 fawns to coyote predation and the second year it was over 10. Also, DOW biologist Lloyd Culberston was telling me about a camtracker set up over a coyote den this summer in Morgan County where the male drug over 5 fawns back to the bitch and pups in a 3 week window.

[buckbacks]

Not a bad idea Kyle, however, not many hunters are coming from Iowa or Kansas to deer hunt in Ohio. The vast majority of our non resident hunters are coming from WV, PA, MI, NY and the southeast where the hunting is not nearly as good as it is here.

I would really like to see the numbers on what non residents are killing.
I bet it's no where near what you guys are thinking(i'm sure odnr knows that). I know they welcome us for one reason or another.
1.too many deer in ohio
2. more money

you guys should know that alot don't tag out. The 22,000 NR's are mostly trophy hunters(whatever that is to each indivual).
The hunting is great down in the south we just like a vacation like everybody else and like hunting elsewhere sometimes.
you say wv is coming because they shoot everything
PA is coming for the sunday hunting
what's the others reasons?

please somebody show me some numbers for NR's.
Mike I know you got the contacts to find out.

[bowhunter1023]

I remember reading that study and when I saw it was in Athens County, I was blown away. I really didn't think the yotes were doing much damage in SE Ohio.

[lacure]

Mrex,
My hunting buddy from WVa has a relative that set up a trail camera over a coyote den. In a 45 day period, they got 13, yes 13, different pictures of different fawns being dragged into the den!!! If anyone thinks the yotes are not doing more than their share, they are fooling themselves.

By the way, I remember last year reading that there was legislation introduced (I think it was at the state level, but could have been federal) to put a bounty back on coyotes (I think it was $50/yote). Did anyone else remember seeing that? Anyone know where that stands? Just curious.

[Lundy43123]

Mike,

That is good to know. I have always wondered who, if anyone, had any definitive information on deer coyote predation numbers for Ohio.

I have been passing on shooting the coyote's. The farmer says they don't bother his cattle and I just don't like killing anything just because I can.

I had noticed the last few years more coyote's and does with one of no fawns and wondered if they might be related.

I know of two den areas of the property, I may set a new goal for the next couple of weeks.

Thanks

[mrex]

Mrex,
My hunting buddy from WVa has a relative that set up a trail camera over a coyote den. In a 45 day period, they got 13, yes 13, different pictures of different fawns being dragged into the den!!! If anyone thinks the yotes are not doing more than their share, they are fooling themselves.

By the way, I remember last year reading that there was legislation introduced (I think it was at the state level, but could have been federal) to put a bounty back on coyotes (I think it was $50/yote). Did anyone else remember seeing that? Anyone know where that stands? Just curious.lacure – That legislation was introduced by state rep Jimmy Stewart and was shot down in Columbus.

Back about 12 years ago, I wrote an article for Ohio Game & Fish Magazine on coyote hunting and the history of coyotes in Ohio. One of the bits of research I came across was how the US Dept. of Agriculture declared war on coyotes in Wyoming and lost. They’re like vermin, you kill one and three come to bury him. They are very indiscriminant killers and unfortunately, they’re here to stay.

[mrex]

Mike,

That is good to know. I have always wondered who, if anyone, had any definitive information on deer coyote predation numbers for Ohio.

I have been passing on shooting the coyote's. The farmer says they don't bother his cattle and I just don't like killing anything just because I can.

I had noticed the last few years more coyote's and does with one of no fawns and wondered if they might be related.

I know of two den areas of the property, I may set a new goal for the next couple of weeks.

ThanksThe one “chink” in an eastern coyotes armor (from a hunting perspective) is the fact that they are very territorial. Especially the alpha male. Most farmers are told not to shoot resident coyotes if they aren’t bothering the livestock. The theory is that killing calves and sheep is a learned behavior and once it happens, the flood gates bust open. So, if the local coyotes aren’t doing it, they may keep others out that will.

[bulsmith]

By the way, I remember last year reading that there was legislation introduced (I think it was at the state level, but could have been federal) to put a bounty back on coyotes (I think it was $50/yote). Did anyone else remember seeing that? Anyone know where that stands? Just curious.
That was here in Ohio and the Bill was stalled in committee discussions.
We need to wake up and reduce the yote problem.
Maybe $50 is too high for them, but there needs to be some sort of bounty.

That legislation was introduced by state rep Jimmy Stewart and was shot down in Columbus.

I do believe the legislation is "still alive" just no one wants to take it up again. To many anti's and animal rights folks.

[MASHUNTER18]

I think coyotes are tagging more than we think. A few years ago, I let the DOW guys dart and radio collar a pile of adult does here on my place for a fawn mortality study. The following two springs they were able to catch and collar 30+ fawns (per year). The first year they lost 6 fawns to coyote predation and the second year it was over 10. Also, DOW biologist Lloyd Culberston was telling me about a camtracker set up over a coyote den this summer in Morgan County where the male drug over 5 fawns back to the bitch and pups in a 3 week window.


Now thats pretty neat. So do they come back and get the collars after a year or two?? How about guys harvesting a collared a doe, just call a 1-800 number to turn the collar in????Anywhere to read about this study??? I used to trap k-9's for a few years, Iv also this year witnessed 3 yotes trying to take down an adult doe from my treestand, I know they can get adults also............Please respond:D :D


As far as recperical pricing goes for out of state hunters, why not??? I know with trapping that is a big thing, certain states will only let you trap fox/coon if your home state allows out of staters to.
Why not atleast make it so if you go to a state and you have to be drawn a buck tag( cant buy over the counter), OHio should be the same way, if I cant buy a buck tag over the counter in Iowa for example, maybe people from Iowa shouldnt be able to here either????
Works for trapping, why not deer hunting???

[MASHUNTER18]

Forgot to add 50$ bounty on yotes wont work.......

#1....fur prices arent that high for yote, maybe a few top lots will bring that much, but the bulk of them wont after skinning,fleshing,drying

Plus coyotes can and will form family groups with Alphas, kill the breeding female, guess what the group could break up and disperse 3 young females to start their own group.( more breeders)

The coyote isnt going anywhere, they are to versatile.

[CritterGitter]

I know people from Iowa aren't coming to Ohio to hunt. However, people are choosing Ohio instead of Iowa or Kansas. Now, see not only is it expensive to hunt there, it is also hard to get the chance. No over the counter tags, you got to get drawn. So, whatever MI charges for tags maybe we should charge that, or maybe we should charge more. Just jack up our prices like those other states have. I don't know....maybe that is not the best answer. I still think you can only put a slaughter on the herd so much and then the #'s will be bleak the following year. I am already seeing the strains for central Ohio increasing to a 3 deer county last year. I would love to hear how hunters in NW Ohio would feel if they increase to a 3 deer county. Those small woodlots would get wiped out especially with extra gun days now. I am sounding a little whiny now. Deer hunting in Ohio is awesome right now. I am with Mrex though in that it is good to brainstorm on ways that we can keep it that way or maybe make it better.

As for yotes, I am behind a bounty on them suckers 100%. Anyone know of any good pheasant hunting? Heck no, not around here. Us flatlanders in the middle and northern parts of the state would love to see the yotes get wiped clean. Well, not wiped clean, but their population needs to be put in check. It would help the turkey, pheasant & deer populations tremendously! Even if the legislation for a bounty was declined, I think more could be done to promote and encourage hunting and trapping yotes.

Kyle

[buckbacks]

everybody jumps to conclusions without ever researching the matter.
look at every states land size, deer population , number of hunters and kill rates and you will see why things are how they are.
Each state is different and things work different in each one.
every body mentions Iowa.
do you know how many tags are sold? About 250,000
do you know what their herd goal is? about 250,000
number killed in 2005------------------210,000
number before fawning season 360,000 (2004)
state size-----------------------------56,000 sq. miles
people population----------------------2,964,000

ohio's hunters-----------------------------400,000(multiple tags)
herd goal--------------------------------600,000
number killed-----------------------------217,000
number before fawning--------------------400,000
state size---------------------------------44,000 sq miles
population--------------------------------11,450,000

I did alot of research on this. it seems to me Ohio is overpopulated with deer and people compared to Iowa and Iowa really is crying about their deer population right now. they want it reduced. research it and get some facts.

[CritterGitter]

I'll gladly help Iowa reduce the size of their deer herd when I can buy an out-of-state deer tag(good for either sex) for $24.00. I can tell you I have researched the cost. I forget the cost of the license, but for the non-resident a deer tag costs $240.00. That is a fact. I can't recall the prices for the other states such as IL, KS but I know it is similar. Heck, last year we had a member from KS post on here that it is cheaper for him to hunt Ohio as a non-resident then it was for him to hunt his own state of KS as a resident? I suppose they have different land size proportions and goals and all that yada yada yada too right? So, all our good friends from MI, WV, KY & PA aren't as likely to go there when they can spend $24.00 and hunt here. Just a hunch, but I bet they would gladly fork down $100 and it is still a bargain compared to those previously mentioned states!

Kyle

[mrex]

I did alot of research on this. it seems to me Ohio is overpopulated with deer and people compared to Iowa and Iowa really is crying about their deer population right now. they want it reduced. research it and get some facts.

And your point is?:coco:

[buckbacks]

I'll gladly help Iowa reduce the size of their deer herd when I can buy an out-of-state deer tag(good for either sex) for $24.00. I can tell you I have researched the cost. I forget the cost of the license, but for the non-resident a deer tag costs $240.00. That is a fact. I can't recall the prices for the other states such as IL, KS but I know it is similar. Heck, last year we had a member from KS post on here that it is cheaper for him to hunt Ohio as a non-resident then it was for him to hunt his own state of KS as a resident? I suppose they have different land size proportions and goals and all that yada yada yada too right? So, all our good friends from MI, WV, KY & PA aren't as likely to go there when they can spend $24.00 and hunt here. Just a hunch, but I bet they would gladly fork down $100 and it is still a bargain compared to those previously mentioned states!

Kyle
The antlerless tag is a mandatory purchase(not required to use) at $100 now.It does cost $125 for a NR license in Ohio you know.plus the tag. Ohio is a bargain and you don't even know why.and still only 22,000 NR last year.
check this out-- they are crying about 6,000 non residents
http://www.taxidermy.net/forums/IndustryArticles/06/e/065898307B.html

and you are griping about us. Do you know how many Ohioans have moved to south carolina in the last five years? ALOT

You shoot a deer in Iowa without the tag you get fined a minimum of 10,000.00 for up to 150 class and 20,000.00 and up for anything over. Get behind the wheel of your car after having too many beers and crash into someone or something causing personal injury you may get fined 250.00. Better yet, abuse your childern and get a 500.00 fine and destroy a child for life. I know poaching deer is wrong and you should be punished but when an 4 legged animal has more value than a human or your property does, it is just confusing.

[Caribou Dreamer2]

Someone say coyotes where i'm there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Love hunting those vermits.I'm glad they areen't going anywhere because boy i love hunting them more than deer but hay thats just me!!!!!!!!!!:yikes:

[whitesnake]

Wow, there is a lot of good opinions here. I don't know exactly where to start, so here goes my opinion. You can agree or disagree I don't care and I am subject to change with good reasoning.

First of all I spent almost three years in WV. I have hunted there 5 or 6 years. Let me say this much I could not believe how much poaching goes on there and how open they were about it. Yes it seems like they have the brown its down attitude also. Yea they do have an over abundence of deer. Now I haven't been back there in almost two years, but thats what I remember about it when I was there.

Well QDM is something every hunter should take part in one way or another. Just what way and how serious hunters are about it well that is up to them. I don't think the state should say what I can shot and what I can't shot as far as deer goes (size of buck or doe first), as long as I stay with in the season and legal bag limits, and hours. If I hunt on a property and the land owners has rules for me well then I obey them or I just don't hunt on that land. I watch a lot of deer go by every year, becuase I am holding out for that big buck. Me personally I don't believe in shooting young bucks I think they should have a chance to grow up. Now if somebody goes out and shoots a young buck and it is a trophy to them well then I am happy for them. I don't think people should go out and shoot ayoung buck just so they can say yea I shot a buck, unless it is a trophy for them.

As far as NR residents go I think the recipicating tag prices goes that it is be on far. Ohio is a true and tried trophy state so I see nothing wrong with Ohio charging a trophy price for there deer tags to NR. Gas, food, taxes, licences, equipment, and etc., I but I spend close to a thousand dollars a year just to deer hunt Ohio and I am a resident.

Coyotes, I really feel the population is getting out of control and if something isn't done in the next few years we will have a real problem with them. I would hate to see how many deer them things kill each year.

Well I could go on an on but I will stop here and maybe post some more later on. Happy hunting to everyone.

Whitesnake

[ohiosam]

Buckbacks said we have 22,000 non-residents. If we got $100 more from each the ODNR would have $2.2 million more every year to buy land, pay for more game wardens etc. $250 is not out of line for a non-resident compared to many states. I have a friend that goes to Montana every year, non-resident deer license there is $750.

[bowhunter1023]

Do you know how many Ohioans have moved to south carolina in the last five years? ALOT

Knowing a few people who have done that, 9.9999 out of 10 are moving for jobs not for the deer hunting.

[Caribou Dreamer2]

Coyotes, I really feel the population is getting out of control and if something isn't done in the next few years we will have a real problem with them. I would hate to see how many deer them things kill each year.

I am trying to help you guys out on this population problem your having and having fun at it tooooooooo.:bouncy: :bouncy: :bouncy:

[ohiosam]

Knowing a few people who have done that, 9.9999 out of 10 are moving for jobs not for the deer hunting.

I think the implication is that many of the non-residents are former Ohioans coming home to hunt with family.

[zoar]

I did not know that there is a large number of non-residents coming to Ohio.
I know there is a huge number of Ohio hunters that head to PA including myself.
PA sells over 60,000 non-resident licenses a year.

[Huber920]

Let me ask this...this year I had an injured, young 4 point buck walk passed me. His leg was badly hurt and he was limping hard so I took him down, not wanting to see him suffer. If some of these regulations are implemented, such as the earn a buck program, I would've had to let him walk, or limp, away since I did not have a doe yet. That just wouldn't sit well with me. Is there some sort of mercy rule that would apply to the Earn A Buck program if it was put into place? I would sure hope so.

[ohiosam]

Let me ask this...this year I had an injured, young 4 point buck walk passed me. His leg was badly hurt and he was limping hard so I took him down, not wanting to see him suffer. If some of these regulations are implemented, such as the earn a buck program, I would've had to let him walk, or limp, away since I did not have a doe yet. That just wouldn't sit well with me. Is there some sort of mercy rule that would apply to the Earn A Buck program if it was put into place? I would sure hope so.

What would you do if you had already tagged a buck and the same thing happened?

[Huber920]

I dunno...tell him to take two Advils and call me in the morning. Ha

[buckbacks]

I think the implication is that many of the non-residents are former Ohioans coming home to hunt with family.
actually all are moving here to retire, to get out of the cold,wasn't implementing that they are returning either. just a statement that I know alot are moving south( really not related to hunting at all,most didn't hunt anyway.)
they choose where I'm at because it's a day drive home(Fla is two days)

what I'm saying is " I think you are making a moutain out of a molehill when it comes to NR's) I would like to see the numbers on NR's harvest.

[Bucko]

Why does all QDM post start out as such than half way through it turns into
all about booting the NR hunter or priceing them out.Some of us save our vacations and work ot just to come hunt for a week.( just like the rest of you) we are not all loaded and we are not all slob hunters and we don't shoot anything that jumps,we like the people we have met and like to hunt Ohio.It's that simple.I might shoot a doe but I won't shoot a small buck.Lucky for us we have a friend in Washington and Morgan countys that lets us hunt.Free I might add.The state raise the price and it will keep some away but I don't think it would keep the hunters that are already here. Just my 2 cents.Bucko

[Bucko]

Let me correct the last sentence I meant the state can raise tags and it may keep some away but not those of us that come to enjoy hunting in Ohio!Bucko

[mrex]

Forgot to add 50$ bounty on yotes wont work.......

#1....fur prices arent that high for yote, maybe a few top lots will bring that much, but the bulk of them wont after skinning,fleshing,drying

Plus coyotes can and will form family groups with Alphas, kill the breeding female, guess what the group could break up and disperse 3 young females to start their own group.( more breeders)

The coyote isnt going anywhere, they are to versatile.

In past years, biologists haven’t concerned themselves too much about coyotes because they’ve believed that the coyotes may take a few fawns but not enough to dramatically impact the herds. However, in the last couple of years, several research projects have shed new light on the subject of coyotes and how they impact deer.

Mississippi State University has been studying coyotes for 10 years, and just recently concluded a very extensive study.

The biologists’ research indicates that: *coyotes are taking fawn deer during the spring.

*Hunters randomly taking coyotes in a particular area has no impact on reducing the number of coyotes feeding on deer fawns because of the social structure of coyotes. Once a coyote population becomes established, there’s a very strong social order and ranking of the animals in that population, including alpha males and alpha females. Once these dominant males and females establish their home ranges in a certain area, they keep the subordinate coyotes from occupying or sharing those same ranges. If a high-ranking coyote is incidentally harvested by a hunter, the coyote’s home range may then be filled by several other juvenile coyotes. So, in some instances, coyote hunters may actually increase the coyote population by shooting coyotes from a deer stand.

The best two defenses to reduce coyote numbers are: 1) adopt very intensive and on-going trapping and predator-hunting programs that will last for several years; or, 2) beat the coyotes at their own game by ensuring that there is adequate fawning cover on your property, which is the more desirable and most effective defense for hunters. Fawning cover is characterized by low-growing, fairly-dense and impenetrable habitat that makes locating fawns very difficult for coyotes.

A coyote has to get within 100 to 200 feet, or 30 to 60 yards of a fawn to detect it during the first two weeks after the fawn’s birth because the fawn doesn’t have much scent then. Therefore, on a property having high-quality fawning cover that’s very thick and dense, the coyotes are less likely to find fawns. I always wondered if the biologists handling the fawns on my place when they put the collars on them made them more vulnerable to coyotes.

Does will be able to select the best fawning habitat, if the herd is in good shape with an appropriate number of deer that the habitat can support. Predation on fawns by coyotes is much greater on young does because young does usually get less quality sites to drop their fawns than the older does do, and young does aren’t as effective at defending their fawns against predators.

Another effective way to help get rid of predators is called predator swamping, which means trying to have all the fawns on the ground born at the same time. When there’s a balanced age structure and enough bucks available to breed all the does, hunters will get very concise breeding. When there’s concise breeding in the fall, there will be concise spawning in the spring, since most of the fawns born in a particular herd will all be born at the same time. When almost all the fawns are born at one time, the coyotes can’t take many of them because they can only eat so many fawns at a time. However, when there’s a poorly-managed deer herd with skewed sex ratios and poor buck age structure, fawns will be born over a much longer time. Then coyotes can make a living eating fawns for 3 or 4 months.

All the more arguement for QDM!!!

[tuffshot]

QDM- Question

If a program is implemented and the desired results become a reality, then what? QDM is still theroretical and sooner or later there will need to be a stopping point and things could be returned to a more normal state.

As slow as agencies are to react to any political issue, damage could be done before QDM needs to take a different direction to be as effective. :whistle:


On the yote subject, studies in Ohio should have happened along time ago and western states information should have been evaluated a long time ago as well. The results are the same here as have happened years ago along the migration route of the yote. Even 20 years ago yotes were in Indiana along the Ohio border and it was just, Oh, look there goes a coyote! When I worked on the railroad 20 years ago we saw countless yotes on the fringes of Richmond Indiana and knew it was just a matter of time when Ohio would have a problem. When the settlers of this land all but eliminate them in the East may have been a good idea after all. Maybe?

Then again, the invasion of the coyote could be natures way of reclamation.
With damage control permits, hunters, road kills, poachers and coyotes, they are all impacts on the populations. But yet they continue to thrive and the herd grows....;)

[stumphole]

QDM- Question

If a program is implemented and the desired results become a reality, then what? QDM is still theroretical and sooner or later there will need to be a stopping point and things could be returned to a more normal state.

As slow as agencies are to react to any political issue, damage could be done before QDM needs to take a different direction to be as effective. :whistle:

QDM is not a static thing. As any management program it evolves and changes as the need dictates.

[tuffshot]

QDM- Question

If a program is implemented and the desired results become a reality, then what? QDM is still theroretical and sooner or later there will need to be a stopping point and things could be returned to a more normal state.

As slow as agencies are to react to any political issue, damage could be done before QDM needs to take a different direction to be as effective. :whistle:

QDM is not a static thing. As any management program it evolves and changes as the need dictates.

Stumphole,

As in the case of Texas and other highly QDM states the evolution takes time and somtimes the results are not always what is expected and a different direction needs to be adressed sooner than expected. Timing can be every thing.

Just look at Ohio, does have been free for the taking for quite some time now but the population of this expansion is now a driving force for QDM at present.
Thus my question. Paticipation will be the determining factor and location as well. One QDM program for the entire state will probably limited success.

[stumphole]

Tuffshot,
I think you are talking about the theory of QDM and I would agree. I believe the state is trying to take care of the resource and is doing some things that make sense like the harvest limits in zones. This is probably the most effective way to control the numbers. As far as antler size limits and that stuff right now I don't think the have the human resources to implement much on that front. Should they be more proactive on a yearly basis, yeah, will they be, who knows.

[halliday]

All you guys down south have that option to kill multiple deer and take a doe first ...up here in north western Ohio we can harvest but one animal and after waiting all year for bow season to finally arrive, try telling these hunters to let all the small bucks walk and shoot a doe or wait on a buck that's 4.5 years or older to walk by or just eat your tag for a few years until it happens...NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. They massacre the does and young bucks up here during gun season...found 3 dead does laying in the fields since the first week of gun law...Bow hunting this year in the same 100 acres..4 nights a week minimum, I saw only 6 mature does, 2 had twins with them...5 spike bucks..3 young 6s and a young 7...one 2.5 year old 8 that was pretty impressive and 4 real nice mature bucks some of which i posted pictures of earlier this year. Who says our ratios are so out of wack ?

Just out of curiousity, how many of you hunters with multiple tags killed your does VS. your buck..?

[oxmos]

Took two does and one good buck this year. Overall on the family farm this year we took 8 does and 2 good bucks.