Habitat Improvement or Habitat Retainage?

[Milo]

Which one seems to matter the most to you?

Who is to blame for Habitat Loss or the lack of open spaces to hunt?

These are all tough issues and I would like to hear you opinion on them.

[Hiller]

I think we need to have a continual progression of both. The retainage though is one of the most important things, once your habitat is gone it is hard to bring it back to what it once was.

Thanks
Hiller

[bowhunter1023]

I really think at the rate that large tracts of land are disappearing across the state and country, the most important thing would be retainage. Once the people made it clear that their lands are not for sale, and they secure some more of the fleeting open places, they could focus more on improvement.

I know from a personal perspective, I am a year-bonus away from being 100%out of debt, not including my student loans, so I am looking to buy a house come May or June. Once that happens I will do everything in my power to begin looking for land to buy or land contract. My fiance graduates in May of '08, at that point we should be making 6 figures together. I made her promise me that the first thing we would do is break the bank and buy as much land as we can, and NEVER sell any of it.

After we get that all done, we can focus on the habitat improvement.

[swantucky]

I think habitat retainage is far more important than improvment.

Who is to blame???? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ In northwest Ohio I have lost 4 prime areas for both deer and small game to development. 1 office park and 3 neighborhoods. I can't fault the farmers, they were getting pretty old and someone offered them big dollars for their land. I knew the one guy pretty well from hunting there and spending time with him over the 15 years I hunted there. He told me when he bought the farm in the 40's he paid $25,000 which was a fortune back then. He sold 15 acres while I was still hunting there for $250,000. When he passed away his daughter sold the remaining 60 or so acres for over 1.5 MILLON!!!!!! How can someone justify keeping the property so I can shoot a couple deer every year when you are talking about that kind of money????????

Urban sprall is the culprit. People want want to move to the country to avoid crime, taxes, poor schools etc. The developers are filling that need and the farmers are cashing in. If any of us paid $50,000 for a 20 acre hunting spot and 5 years later the developer came a knocking with a check for $300,000 you can't say you would turn them away.

This trend is not going to change anytime soon, it sucks but its a fact. Hell, in my area there is a gun club that used to be "in the country" that has neighborhoods surronding it now. Believe it or not the neighbors are trying to get them shut down!!! This club has been there probably 30 years or more. You buy a house next to a gun club them complain about the noise.....people are just flat out idiots, too bad the courts support them!!!!!

[MagnumMudMan]

I think habitat retainage is far more important than improvment.

Who is to blame???? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ In northwest Ohio I have lost 4 prime areas for both deer and small game to development. 1 office park and 3 neighborhoods. I can't fault the farmers, they were getting pretty old and someone offered them big dollars for their land. I knew the one guy pretty well from hunting there and spending time with him over the 15 years I hunted there. He told me when he bought the farm in the 40's he paid $25,000 which was a fortune back then. He sold 15 acres while I was still hunting there for $250,000. When he passed away his daughter sold the remaining 60 or so acres for over 1.5 MILLON!!!!!! How can someone justify keeping the property so I can shoot a couple deer every year when you are talking about that kind of money????????

Urban sprall is the culprit. People want want to move to the country to avoid crime, taxes, poor schools etc. The developers are filling that need and the farmers are cashing in. If any of us paid $50,000 for a 20 acre hunting spot and 5 years later the developer came a knocking with a check for $300,000 you can't say you would turn them away.



I hear you there Swantucky. I used to rabbit hunt up and down the street you live on back 20 years ago before there were so many houses. Two of the lots right across the street from your house were my little honey holes.

Its hard to blame the farmers for selling out some of their property. Hard to justify keeping a 10 acre plot when someone offers you $100,000 or more for it. Take a long time to make that much from growing corn on it. I am not really sure what the right answer is, but habitat preservation needs to be the prime focus of hunters over the next century or we will all be hunting the little bit of public land that is available.

Where I hunt at down in Ross county, we are already taking steps to be in a position to be able to buy the property when the old lady that owns it dies. Hopefully she lives a long time, but we need to make sure that the land is preserved for hunting and we are working on making sure that happens.


This trend is not going to change anytime soon, it sucks but its a fact. Hell, in my area there is a gun club that used to be "in the country" that has neighborhoods surronding it now. Believe it or not the neighbors are trying to get them shut down!!! This club has been there probably 30 years or more. You buy a house next to a gun club them complain about the noise.....people are just flat out idiots, too bad the courts support them!!!!!

Which club are you talking about? Adams Conservation in Holland?

[swantucky]

Yep, Adams. They have already restricted the hours out there. The other gun club that used to be on the outskirts of Sylvania, Medusa I think it was called, has already been shut down due to the "new" neighbors bitching.

By the way there is still one of those lots across the street from me that has not been built on yet. My neighbor tried to buy it and if I remember right they wanted over $40,000 for about an acre!!!!

[MagnumMudMan]

Yep, Adams. They have already restricted the hours out there. The other gun club that used to be on the outskirts of Sylvania, Medusa I think it was called, has already been shut down due to the "new" neighbors bitching.

By the way there is still one of those lots across the street from me that has not been built on yet. My neighbor tried to buy it and if I remember right they wanted over $40,000 for about an acre!!!!

I am the rifle range chairman at Adams and I was previously on the board there for 4 years. I know all about the neighbors and their complaining. That club has been there for over 50 years. Who knows how long it will continue to be there. Your right, it was Medusa that got shut down by the neighbors.

My dad bought that lot across from you to the south and built that brick house on it all for under $30,000. Granted, that was 36 years ago also. Ha.

[deerhunter_matt]

I know one trend that has been occurring is due to city zoning laws. the township I grew up in rezoned basically the entire township for residential and commercial construction. Even the farms. My brother and I lost a real good rabbit hunting farm because of this. The farmer was getting SLAMMED on property taxes, and developers were practically kicking his door in. What choice do you have? Especailly with falling crop prices!


And I feel that a good mix of both retaining and developing is in order. Obtain, or retain what exists, and improve it at the same time.

[ohiosam]

I know one trend that has been occurring is due to city zoning laws. the township I grew up in rezoned basically the entire township for residential and commercial construction. Even the farms. My brother and I lost a real good rabbit hunting farm because of this. The farmer was getting SLAMMED on property taxes, and developers were practically kicking his door in. What choice do you have? Especailly with falling crop prices!
.

It doesn't work that way if the farm in enrolled in CAUV the farmer is taxed on the land's ability to produce a crop. It doesn't matter what the zoning classification is.

The problem is urban sprawl. Kind of funny to have such a problem in a state with declining population. But everyone wants a house with some land. State need to change it's laws on zoning and taxation and have a real program to purchase development rights from land owners. Not likely to happen though because most areas of the state are more interested in development then habitat.

[bowhunter1023]

I really don't love in an "urban" environment, but we do have a alot of people in the Mid-Ohio Valley. There are alot of jobs here with the plants and the new Public Debt building in Parkersburg, WV. And now they are building a new bridge across the Ohio River.

When we moved to where we are now, it was still small town. Now all of a sudden things are growing up because once the bridge is done we are only 15-20 from town and all the jobs. That is why we bought the farm about 15 min. further out, things were just getting too small. When we moved out there I had our 12 acres plus access to about 40 more. Well the 40 is now a housing development well on its way to flushing all the deer away from our 12. Thank God for the farm!

[Milo]

It doesn't work that way if the farm in enrolled in CAUV the farmer is taxed on the land's ability to produce a crop. It doesn't matter what the zoning classification is.

The problem is urban sprawl. Kind of funny to have such a problem in a state with declining population. But everyone wants a house with some land. State need to change it's laws on zoning and taxation and have a real program to purchase development rights from land owners. Not likely to happen though because most areas of the state are more interested in development then habitat.
I can tell you for a fact that the development rights issues are being heavily discussed at this time by several places. That may be our saving grace in this whole mess. I wondered how long it would take someone to notice how many times your hear people whining about losing jobs but more and more subdivisions keep going up. I personally feel that the habitat protection needs to come from the government. For instance, new homes should come with an extra heavy tax on them. why? diminising resources. There currently is a large surplus of existing homes in the vast majority of ohio. The government should give people tax breaks for buying existing homes and remodeling them. This would provide incentive to improve neighborhoods by keeping the properties in good condition and lessen the burden on our urban sprawl lands. If you look at a place like upper arlington, great schools and awesome place to live right in the center of a metropolis. People WANT to live there. they buy 2 houses so they can tear them down to rebuild on big one. I see that as a win win for everyone. Thats one less lot that has to be built on the fringes and we save more ground for the wildlife. There needs to be an incentive everywhere for that to happen. I think the biggest winners of a program like tha would be cities who don't care about the land they gobble up in the name of progress.

[bowhunter1023]

Milo...A very well thought out plan, and one that makes great sense. I definitely see that as a plausible solution to an ever increasing problem. It would do wonders for areas in, and around Columbus and the Akron-Canton area.

That's what I talking about...adding value to the forum;) Just messing.

[ohiosam]

I looked into selling the development rights to my farm to the state. On ground that is worth $8-10,000 an acre I'd get around $1000-1200. Not many farmers taking that deal. Not sure more money for this is a high priority in Columbus.

I chair my downship's zoning board. There is little we can do to stop it. The most we can do is slow it down. Some of what we've done is allow much high density in parts of the township that have sewer and water. Inthe rest of the twp you need 3 acres and 250' of frontage. Since we inacted the 250' rule (2 years)we haven't had a developer put in a road in that part of the township.

Because Youngstown charges 2.75% income tax we have business' looking to relocate here. Everyone automaticly gets a raise. So far most have been small but we have some larger business' looking at us.

[Milo]

I looked into selling the development rights to my farm to the state. On ground that is worth $8-10,000 an acre I'd get around $1000-1200. Not many farmers taking that deal. Not sure more money for this is a high priority in Columbus.

I chair my downship's zoning board. There is little we can do to stop it. The most we can do is slow it down. Some of what we've done is allow much high density in parts of the township that have sewer and water. Inthe rest of the twp you need 3 acres and 250' of frontage. Since we inacted the 250' rule (2 years)we haven't had a developer put in a road in that part of the township.

Because Youngstown charges 2.75% income tax we have business' looking to relocate here. Everyone automaticly gets a raise. So far most have been small but we have some larger business' looking at us.

I know what your dealing with. Developers should buy development rights from you not the state. Thats why your getting the hose. The process needs to be done by Conservation easements between the township, land owner and developer. for example the farmersland is zoned at 1 unit per 3 acres. if he has 100 cres the developer could buy that additional zoning density from him. so the farmer sets the price for which he would be happy to see teh ground stay as it is. it might be as much as 10k an acre( a measly $3300 for each addtional houses) you see the developer gets good deal and so does the farmer in his case becuase his land is not worth squat withoutu sewer and water. There will need to be a arrangements made for all properties so farminf and other practices can continue if needed. just blanket open space is a waste of everyones time. were going to need food and grain cause BBQ suace on pavement don't taste to good. Conservation easements can be arranged in many different ways depending on the best land use for the property. We don't want to be pushing down woods for farm ground just because the easement language says to allow farming. Allowing higher densities is just cutting off large cities which in turn pisses them off. Have you tried recipricating master planning for the entire region? Some are reseptive and some are not. Well placed articles in newspapers showing their inflexibility or unwillingness to work togther usually gets peoples attention. Again, if there was in incentive to stay within the city and use old brown fields or abandoned commericial areas things would improve.

[OHBOW76]

Part of the problem here in SW Ohio is that local politicians keep selling out to developers under the guise it will create tax revenue, and jobs. I coudl see buildign a factory or industrial plant that provides nymerous good paying jobs, but carpet expresses, etc, a bunch of minimum non-benfit providign jobs does nothign to boost the economy.For example where I live OBERER keeps buying up everyhting and anything, then plow it under, and put buildings up before they even have occupants or prospective renters. It is getting out of hand, I would liek to see more communities pass laws preventing urban sprawl especailly when there are numerous buildings and shopping centers lying their vacant why build a new one. With many of the development companies its just greed, when is enough money enough!

[Milo]

Part of the problem here in SW Ohio is that local politicians keep selling out to developers under the guise it will create tax revenue, and jobs. I coudl see buildign a factory or industrial plant that provides nymerous good paying jobs, but carpet expresses, etc, a bunch of minimum non-benfit providign jobs does nothign to boost the economy.For example where I live OBERER keeps buying up everyhting and anything, then plow it under, and put buildings up before they even have occupants or prospective renters. It is getting out of hand, I would liek to see more communities pass laws preventing urban sprawl especailly when there are numerous buildings and shopping centers lying their vacant why build a new one. With many of the development companies its just greed, when is enough money enough!
Hey, the one thing I have learned is that they only do it becuase they can. They run a business and have employees and families just like the rest of us. A lot of their money is tied up in investments like property and other assests. thats how they grow. The developers are not to blame. It's the people that are in charge that allow them to get away with it. I bought my property because i knew my zoning laws were not going to change anytime soon. By the time the development would ever get to me, there stands a great chance I would not want to be there anyway so I would be willing to let it go for a nominal fee.:D If you really want to make a difference, get involved in local zoning and issues going on in your townships. Make suggestions and get on these boards that determine your areas outcomes.

[Andy Gehle]

Hey, the one thing I have learned is that they only do it becuase they can. They run a business and have employees and families just like the rest of us. A lot of their money is tied up in investments like property and other assests. thats how they grow. The developers are not to blame. It's the people that are in charge that allow them to get away with it. I bought my property because i knew my zoning laws were not going to change anytime soon. By the time the development would ever get to me, there stands a great chance I would not want to be there anyway so I would be willing to let it go for a nominal fee.:D If you really want to make a difference, get involved in local zoning and issues going on in your townships. Make suggestions and get on these boards that determine your areas outcomes.

I've been trying to bang that drum for years. Dude, most on here base their opinions on heresay as opposed to taking some time and dig up some facts. Aint many going to all of a sudden immerse themselves in local zoning issues.

There are MANY other issues, but for sure retention and improvement of habitat is right at the top. And there are indeed success stories...AND ways to get involved that most people don't realize.

Case example is the Big Darby Creek Watershed outside Columbus. It's one of the most diverse habitat environments in the state. And one that is fighting the development sprawl.
But huge tracts of land have been purchased from private owners, huge tracts have been donated by the Galbreaths, legislation has been passed to protect the watershed from development and all the crap that comes along with it, riparian corridors have been protected and re-established to prevent errosion, etc....

If people don't think this is a big deal for whitetails, than they've obviously never been in the area.

But here's the key, MOST of this wasn't brought about from groups of hunters making some noise on a website, it was brought about by well organized groups like Nature Conservatory, Stream Partners, Smallmouth Alliance, etc...Congressmen were written and contacted and action came about.

There's tons of ways to get involved and make a difference. Here's a good place to start to bring onesself up to speed on National Issues:
http://www.sportsmenslink.org/issues/legislation.asp

[Milo]

I've been trying to bang that drum for years. Dude, most on here base their opinions on heresay as opposed to taking some time and dig up some facts. Aint many going to all of a sudden immerse themselves in local zoning issues.

There are MANY other issues, but for sure retention and improvement of habitat is right at the top. And there are indeed success stories...AND ways to get involved that most people don't realize.

Case example is the Big Darby Creek Watershed outside Columbus. It's one of the most diverse habitat environments in the state. And one that is fighting the development sprawl.
But huge tracts of land have been purchased from private owners, huge tracts have been donated by the Galbreaths, legislation has been passed to protect the watershed from development and all the crap that comes along with it, riparian corridors have been protected and re-established to prevent errosion, etc....

If people don't think this is a big deal for whitetails, than they've obviously never been in the area.

But here's the key, MOST of this wasn't brought about from groups of hunters making some noise on a website, it was brought about by well organized groups like Nature Conservatory, Stream Partners, Smallmouth Alliance, etc...Congressmen were written and contacted and action came about.

There's tons of ways to get involved and make a difference. Here's a good place to start to bring onesself up to speed on National Issues:
http://www.sportsmenslink.org/issues/legislation.asp


I find it depressing that the greenies are our biggest friends and enemies. ami getting closer to bing in the group now?:D :D

[Andy Gehle]

I find it depressing that the greenies are our biggest friends and enemies. ami getting closer to bing in the group now?:D :D

Tis the nature of the beast if you want to get anything done. I was involved a little with one of the groups, (you guess which one;) ), and there are ALOT of common goals when it comes to habitat preservation.

Save the land, improve the land, and then enjoy the benefits of the land. (It's just their benefits are taking pictures of orioles, while my benefit is shooting deer and catching fish.)

[Jimmy]

Retaining.

[ohiosam]

I know what your dealing with. Developers should buy development rights from you not the state. Thats why your getting the hose. The process needs to be done by Conservation easements between the township, land owner and developer. for example the farmersland is zoned at 1 unit per 3 acres. if he has 100 cres the developer could buy that additional zoning density from him. so the farmer sets the price for which he would be happy to see teh ground stay as it is. it might be as much as 10k an acre( a measly $3300 for each addtional houses) you see the developer gets good deal and so does the farmer in his case becuase his land is not worth squat withoutu sewer and water. There will need to be a arrangements made for all properties so farminf and other practices can continue if needed. just blanket open space is a waste of everyones time. were going to need food and grain cause BBQ suace on pavement don't taste to good. Conservation easements can be arranged in many different ways depending on the best land use for the property. We don't want to be pushing down woods for farm ground just because the easement language says to allow farming. Allowing higher densities is just cutting off large cities which in turn pisses them off. Have you tried recipricating master planning for the entire region? Some are reseptive and some are not. Well placed articles in newspapers showing their inflexibility or unwillingness to work togther usually gets peoples attention. Again, if there was in incentive to stay within the city and use old brown fields or abandoned commericial areas things would improve.

My understanding is the some of the tools you are talking about are not available to townships at this time. We can not assess impact fees to developers to mitigate expenses the twp incures from the development. Also I know of no law (in Ohio) that allows us to have a developer purchase development rights to another property in exchange for more units in a development.

We have had a couple of PUDs (Planned Unit Developments, condos) where we were able to get them to sell conservation easments on wetlands. The one farm was 120 acres,about 40 acres of wetlands. We allow 2 condo units per acre. He is putting in around 235 unit(could have 240) on the 80 acres the 40 acres of wetlands he sold an easment to AWARE(http://www.watershed.cboss.com/). The thing about this is this farm joined a duck hunters club that has about 150 acres of wetlands. Several adjoining propreties are also owned by hunters. Not perfect but it could have been worse. One other thing we got the developer to do is that everyone the buys a condo has to sign a document that they understand the duck hunters club is their neighbor. So no one can say they didn't know it was there.

There is a comprehensive land use plan for Mahoning county. There is nothing about reciprocity in it. Most of it was done by YSU. It seems more about encouraging development then conservation. Our township spent $25,000 on our part of it, but we were the only township to do so. We have the stricktest zoning ordinance in the county, and the Mahoning County Planning Commission doesn't like it.

Milo what is your role in these issues? Are you a part of an organization that we can work with?

[ohiosam]

Part of the problem here in SW Ohio is that local politicians keep selling out to developers under the guise it will create tax revenue, and jobs. I coudl see buildign a factory or industrial plant that provides nymerous good paying jobs, but carpet expresses, etc, a bunch of minimum non-benfit providign jobs does nothign to boost the economy.For example where I live OBERER keeps buying up everyhting and anything, then plow it under, and put buildings up before they even have occupants or prospective renters. It is getting out of hand, I would liek to see more communities pass laws preventing urban sprawl especailly when there are numerous buildings and shopping centers lying their vacant why build a new one. With many of the development companies its just greed, when is enough money enough!

You have to remember County Commissioners and Township trustees are paid based on the tax revenue (might be budget I forget which) of their county or township. More development=more money for them. Franklin co. Commissioners get paid more then say Galia co. Politicans want development even though studies show that residential areas require more services then they pay in taxes. Agriculture, commercial and industrial for the most part pay more in taxes then the services they require.

[Milo]

You have to remember County Commissioners and Township trustees are paid based on the tax revenue (might be budget I forget which) of their county or township. More development=more money for them. Franklin co. Commissioners get paid more then say Galia co. Politicans want development even though studies show that residential areas require more services then they pay in taxes. Agriculture, commercial and industrial for the most part pay more in taxes then the services they require.
Actually did you know that County commissioners are paid on POPULATION? thats right...more people, more money. How screwed up is that? They get census adjustments for raises. most of their raises are also mandated by the state legislature. So they can say poo to their employees but they get raises. how nice.

[Milo]

My understanding is the some of the tools you are talking about are not available to townships at this time. We can not assess impact fees to developers to mitigate expenses the twp incures from the development. Also I know of no law (in Ohio) that allows us to have a developer purchase development rights to another property in exchange for more units in a development.

We have had a couple of PUDs (Planned Unit Developments, condos) where we were able to get them to sell conservation easments on wetlands. The one farm was 120 acres,about 40 acres of wetlands. We allow 2 condo units per acre. He is putting in around 235 unit(could have 240) on the 80 acres the 40 acres of wetlands he sold an easment to AWARE(http://www.watershed.cboss.com/). The thing about this is this farm joined a duck hunters club that has about 150 acres of wetlands. Several adjoining propreties are also owned by hunters. Not perfect but it could have been worse. One other thing we got the developer to do is that everyone the buys a condo has to sign a document that they understand the duck hunters club is their neighbor. So no one can say they didn't know it was there.

There is a comprehensive land use plan for Mahoning county. There is nothing about reciprocity in it. Most of it was done by YSU. It seems more about encouraging development then conservation. Our township spent $25,000 on our part of it, but we were the only township to do so. We have the stricktest zoning ordinance in the county, and the Mahoning County Planning Commission doesn't like it.

Milo what is your role in these issues? Are you a part of an organization that we can work with?


NOOOOO..you misunderstood me. As a township trustee or zoning board memeber, you can make amendments to the zoning by variances. So you can allow more units per acre if a certian critera is met. That criteria should be drawn up by the trustees and zoning board together. Its a basic take zoning from one area and sell it to another area to help fight the sprawl. Look into conservation subdivisions and you will get another idea besides what I am talking about here. This really benefits everyone in the long run by the following.

Farmers get a decent influx of cash for preserving their land in exchange for giving up the development rights (Or densities). The farmer still owns the ground and he can still sell it if he wishes but the easement for conservation will always be there. So this can or could be bought by ODNR. Why is this important? ODNR must compete with developement dollars for lands. Wanna know who's pockets are deeper? ODNR loses all pissing matches when it comes to money and development. So they can get land at a reduced rate and the farmer can still retain a decent price for his ground only he has essentially taken delayed payments on it. Win/Win/Win

On tehissue of developments not paying for services thats a different story. I will fill you in later

[ohiosam]

NOOOOO..you misunderstood me. As a township trustee or zoning board memeber, you can make amendments to the zoning by variances. So you can allow more units per acre if a certian critera is met. That criteria should be drawn up by the trustees and zoning board together. Its a basic take zoning from one area and sell it to another area to help fight the sprawl. Look into conservation subdivisions and you will get another idea besides what I am talking about here. This really benefits everyone in the long run by the following.

Can you tell me of a township in Ohio that is duing this? I'd like to talk to them.

[ohiosam]

Actually did you know that County commissioners are paid on POPULATION? thats right...more people, more money. How screwed up is that? They get census adjustments for raises. most of their raises are also mandated by the state legislature. So they can say poo to their employees but they get raises. how nice.

Sorry, I was thinking it was tied to revenue. Still development= more money for the politicians

[Jimmy]

All this getting along and constructive swapping of useful information is really getting on my nerves. :irked:

Somebody throw a chair or something. :D

Very informative stuff, guys.

I learnededed stuff today. Thanks.

[Milo]

Can you tell me of a township in Ohio that is duing this? I'd like to talk to them.
I know of no places that do it herein ohio. its a trend that has happened other places. i will try to see if I can dig up some info and get it to you. I have read several article on it and I thought I had one somewhere. I will try to dig it up and scan it. There is no sense we cannot do this in ohio. I rural townships, you will find MANY farmers who are "to hell with development". these are the people that need approaching. This is where we can get volunteers for this program. the farm land that is closer to the fringes is where your going to find it is lost. Greedy kids and aging parents want their cash. Can't blame them.

[ohiosam]

Thanks Milo,
We hire a consultant to give us advise on how to write our ordinances. He's not a lawyer but is familiar with Ohio's laws on zoning and land use, and how courts interpret them. He also works with developers on how to get around rules, so he knows both sides. I'd love to be able to do what you suggest, we just haven't found the way yet. I'll run your ideas past him.
Sam

[Milo]

Thanks Milo,
We hire a consultant to give us advise on how to write our ordinances. He's not a lawyer but is familiar with Ohio's laws on zoning and land use, and how courts interpret them. He also works with developers on how to get around rules, so he knows both sides. I'd love to be able to do what you suggest, we just haven't found the way yet. I'll run your ideas past him.
Sam
Sam, here is a what i could dig up. I have other article but you mad me clean my office:rant: . I am not happy with you.:D I will see what i can further dig up

http://www.countyofdane.com/plandev/pdf/tdr-ordinance_summary.pdf

and more
http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1264.html

[tuffshot]

Which one seems to matter the most to you?

Who is to blame for Habitat Loss or the lack of open spaces to hunt?

These are all tough issues and I would like to hear you opinion on them.



It's plain and simple! The people in Ohio need to stop breeding. They are out numbering the deer to much, that way we will need less jobs and less housing and more room for deer.:biggrin: :hide:
Either that of make it a law to have a rut for the people of Ohio.:yikes: :p

[deerhunt45]

Which one seems to matter the most to you?

Who is to blame for Habitat Loss or the lack of open spaces to hunt?

These are all tough issues and I would like to hear you opinion on them.

In the first place, you can't improve something you don't have.;)

Sad to say, society as a majority are to blame. So many people that want to get away from it all, have brand new landscaped homes, and then ask for and allow the strip malls to pop up for "convenience". People are not self sustaining anymore. People are lazy. We are outgrowing our natural resources and IMO a lot of it is unnecessary and all about greed$$ and instant gratification. No thoughts for the future generations. It sickens me. Not all developers are bad people with greedy plans but money changes people. Once the snowball is rolling and everyone is on the developers coattails there is no stopping it. Poof... another 300 acres of farmland and woodlots gone. Vanished. Poof...another 150 and so on and so on. With development comes water and sewers and septic systems, treatment plants; right of ways, easements etc. More land "chewed up". And then, people wonder why the streams, rivers and land can't handle the concentrated pollutants? This is a real problem. :irked: There is only so much water on earth and all living things are dependent on this resource. :rant:

45

[OHBOW76]

Good points by all,

I have definitely learend soemthing from these posts, very good information. I know when I posted I made it seem very simplistic, when we all knwo it isn't. My grandfatehr once sais you can do anythign you wnat in thsi country if your filthy rich or dirt poor, becuase if your rich you can pay the right people, but if your poor you have nothing anyone can take from you. I say thsi because the property I am talkign about that I use to hunt had a wetland on it, no more gone. I find it disgusting that if a farmer would have plowed under a small waterhole to plant more crops the EPA woudl have been all over him, but OBERER and the City of Fairborn jsut plow right through it. I belive in Captialism and the freedoms of everyone, but like MILO said some of these developers do it just to do it. To me that amounts to greed plain and simple, I also partly blame the ODNR whcih I think shoudl be buying more and more of these small tracts instead of concentrating on one big block in the SE part of the State.

[swantucky]

I just read an article in the Blade yesderday regarding zoning changes in Monclova township(a suburb of Toledo)

I will summerize as best I can. The county planning commision approved changing the zoning of roughly 20 acres from agricultural to commercial. The township planning board voted agianst it to keep the land agricultural. The developer is now going to sue the township and each member of the board individualy. This crap goes on in this area all the time - developer buys agricultural land on the "cheap" the has his lawyers get the zoning changed.....voila the land he bought for $3000 and acre is now worth $10000 an acre or more. I have seen this happen at least 10 times over the last few years, what a crock. Then you have a zoning board stand up to the developers and get sued for their troubles.

[Ross Co. Bowhunter]

It's plain and simple! The people in Ohio need to stop breeding. They are out numbering the deer to much, that way we will need less jobs and less housing and more room for deer.:biggrin: :hide:
Either that of make it a law to have a rut for the people of Ohio.:yikes: :p

That’s too funny LMAO! Good read!

[Milo]

I just read an article in the Blade yesderday regarding zoning changes in Monclova township(a suburb of Toledo)

I will summerize as best I can. The county planning commision approved changing the zoning of roughly 20 acres from agricultural to commercial. The township planning board voted agianst it to keep the land agricultural. The developer is now going to sue the township and each member of the board individualy. This crap goes on in this area all the time - developer buys agricultural land on the "cheap" the has his lawyers get the zoning changed.....voila the land he bought for $3000 and acre is now worth $10000 an acre or more. I have seen this happen at least 10 times over the last few years, what a crock. Then you have a zoning board stand up to the developers and get sued for their troubles.
You can sue anyone for anything in the US. thats a problem

[ohiosam]

I just read an article in the Blade yesderday regarding zoning changes in Monclova township(a suburb of Toledo)

I will summerize as best I can. The county planning commision approved changing the zoning of roughly 20 acres from agricultural to commercial. The township planning board voted agianst it to keep the land agricultural. The developer is now going to sue the township and each member of the board individualy. This crap goes on in this area all the time - developer buys agricultural land on the "cheap" the has his lawyers get the zoning changed.....voila the land he bought for $3000 and acre is now worth $10000 an acre or more. I have seen this happen at least 10 times over the last few years, what a crock. Then you have a zoning board stand up to the developers and get sued for their troubles.

That's how it works, about half the time we deny a zone change (especially to commercial or industrial) we get sued. Normally it's the Township, the trustees, the zoning inspector and the zoning commission named in the law suit. I know of no case where the personnal assets of the individuals were at risk. If the township loses it usually ends up paying the developer's legal fees and something for damages. Usually the township and the developers end up settling out of court. That's not all bad because sometimes you can get the developer to do things that you normally can't get them to do. Then because it's part of a court settlement it's easier to force the developer to live up to the agreement.

It's important for the zone change be denied for legitiment reasons. You can't say no just because you don't want change. Having a well thought out comprehensive land use plan along with the zoning ordinace helps. But really the state needs to change the laws to give townships more authority. Change the laws so cities can't hold townships hostage to sewer and water. Change the laws to encourage redevelopment of areas that are declining. Then the people that live in the townships need to get involved and make sure the trustees are stewards of the land.

[Milo]

That's how it works, about half the time we deny a zone change (especially to commercial or industrial) we get sued. Normally it's the Township, the trustees, the zoning inspector and the zoning commission named in the law suit. I know of no case where the personnal assets of the individuals were at risk. If the township loses it usually ends up paying the developer's legal fees and something for damages. Usually the township and the developers end up settling out of court. That's not all bad because sometimes you can get the developer to do things that you normally can't get them to do. Then because it's part of a court settlement it's easier to force the developer to live up to the agreement.

It's important for the zone change be denied for legitiment reasons. You can't say no just because you don't want change. Having a well thought out comprehensive land use plan along with the zoning ordinace helps. But really the state needs to change the laws to give townships more authority. Change the laws so cities can't hold townships hostage to sewer and water. Change the laws to encourage redevelopment of areas that are declining. Then the people that live in the townships need to get involved and make sure the trustees are stewards of the land.


Thats called " HOME RULE" ohiosam. thats not going to change anytime soon. this is the same reason governor taft veto the concealed carry amendment. it trumped what other towns and cities existing gun bans like the city of columbus. Thats why it vitally important that both townships and cities have reciprocating agreements on how they want and area to develop or not develop. that agreement can be taken to court if one decides to weasel out of the agreement.

This will freak you mind a bit. DID you know that cities are exempt from ODNR and OEPA rules and regulations when it comes to stream and riparian corridors? While it is not a free pass on a lot of stuff they are not held to the same standards as when someone in the township tries to do something say near a scenic river.

[ohiosam]

Sam, here is a what i could dig up. I have other article but you mad me clean my office:rant: . I am not happy with you.:D I will see what i can further dig up

http://www.countyofdane.com/plandev/pdf/tdr-ordinance_summary.pdf

and more
http://ohioline.osu.edu/cd-fact/1264.html\

Thanks Milo

[Milo]

\

Thanks Milo
If you need more, please ask

[ohiosam]

Taft forgot home rule when he signed the bill about cities having residency rules for employees. Anyways Taft will be history in a few weeks.

[coonskinner]

buy more public land...:bouncy:

[CritterGitter]

Wow! This is one of the best threads that I have read in a long time. There is some tremendously useful information in this thread.

Milo, I didn't know you had it in you?

:)

Kyle

[Milo]

Wow! This is one of the best threads that I have read in a long time. There is some tremendously useful information in this thread.

Milo, I didn't know you had it in you?

:)

Kyle
Could you please delete all my posts. that would be great.