Ash staves

[MUZZY MAN]

Ok, for you trad gurus. I've seen Ash and Osage staves on EBay preety cheap. How hard is it to whittle one of these down to a long bow. What tools do you need? And am I complete retard for even thinkin about this?

[mullskinner]

MUZZY MAN,
i tried that bow makin thing before i started with osage it will try your pations my osage ended up real nice ..made a walkin stick out of it :eek: i got about 12 hickory staves you can have to practice on ..you come and get them there all yours ..:bouncy: :bouncy:

[MUZZY MAN]

LOl I might take ya up on it. If I can get some info from the library.

[mullskinner]

MUZZY MAN,
talk to coonskinner i think he made a couple he can point you in the right direction ... there is a couple other bow builders on here also maybe they can help ya out ....:D

[MUZZY MAN]

That would be pretty neat, if not to complicated. Very rewarding, patience is one thing I have plenty of.

[mullskinner]

MUZZY MAN ,
SENT YA A PM BACK ...:yikes:

[coonskinner]

i have never used ash...but have hickory osage and walnut...and they shoot purty good...for a beginner using whitewood ...wide,long limbs are the secret with a flat back and belly...for whitewood which ash is one too the demensions can be the same...out of whitewoods i would use hickory for a first bow...at least 68" length for a 28" draw...the limbs begin from the taper out of the risor...here i like to start at 2"wide on limb...this can taper to 1.5 in.wide at mid limb...to 1" wide about 6" from tip shoulder...and 1/2" wide at tip shoulder...i use what is called pin nocks at the bow tip...very easy to make and its how indians did it...i like the looks too...you can use whatever deminsions you want but i would not go under 1.5 wide at limb center where most the bending takes place...sometimes i even keep this at 2" ,over building it even more from the limb taper to the limb center,(especially if i use walnut which is weaker than hickory)...from the center to the tip shoulder you can try bought anything with width and taper(shape)...all of these demensions should be drawn out on the bows back before you even start shaping the bow...at this point my bow blank sorta resembles a 2x4x6' long with the bow drawn on the back!!!these wide limbs and long limbs plus hickory will usually mean a safe durable bow that will last a lot of shots...in actuallity,its an overbuilt bow...i have told you the demensions here that gives you the best chance to make a successful bow at the first attempt...the more overbuilt,the stronger...another key to strength and durability is making the belly flat...also by using a very large diameter tree the back of the bow will be very flat...i like 20" and up diameter trees for hickory and other whitewoods...xample ...a 2" wide strip 6' long cut out of a length of tree thats 20" dia. will be almost perfectly flat on the bark side...thats lesson 1...like i said this is dimensions that purty well insure a working bow with hickory/whitewood...if you are really out to make a bow i can put you thru it step by step...for what i've given here i would get a pc. of paper draw out a rough bow and write the demensions in from my description...i have left out the handle section out because i finish it last and it has very little to do with the bending parts of the bow...also at this point the limb thickness is of little importance until the tillering procedure of the limbs...

[mullskinner]

LOl I might take ya up on it. If I can get some info from the library.

MUZZY MAN,
check this guy out ...

http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us

:biggrin: :biggrin: ;)

[mullskinner]

MUZZY MAN,
told ya coonskinner has made bows before !!!!!!;) ;)

[bowmiller]

no, muzzy man, you aren't a complete retard, but people will often treat you as such for making and hunting with wooden bows by choice. I'm a bowbuilder, but I ain't a bowyer, and I ain't no guru(whatever that is). I'd be hesitant to buy bow wood on ebay. best to see it in person first, and buy(or trade) with someone you know, or at least trust. better still to harvest bow wood yourself. there's alot of great information in print these days for anybody who truly wants to build a bow. if you want specific information or just need help getting started, send me an email or private message.

[coonskinner]

allright,hey i just seen your name...well muzzy its true,like jamie said,why buy...its in your backyard practically...and why pay so much,even if the stave is cheap,its free if you cut it yourself...the only money you have in it is the string and stain and sealer,which aint much...if the bow blows you have nothing to lose,especially if you shoot it a few thousand times before you stain and seal it...i personally do not cut live trees but only those downed by lightning or bad weather...:mischeif:

[MUZZY MAN]

I'm gonna look over the material I have. And what you put on here George. I appreciate the help.

[mullskinner]

muzzyman .....
check your pm .........
did you get this one :confused:

[bowmiller]

when you harvest bow wood yourself, you have complete control of the drying process, which is paramount to making a quality weapon for hunting. moisture needs to go in one direction from live tree till the minute its under the first coat of finsh.

[MUZZY MAN]

Thanks for your help. I'm gonna look through the material I've downloaded. And pick the staves from Mullskinner. Try to get every thing organized.

[coonskinner]

MUZZY MAN,
check this guy out ...

http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/_homepage.msnw?pgmarket=en-us

:biggrin: :biggrin: ;)



great site...if you check whitewood...then bow layout in the pics...right behind him is a standing stave with the layout of the bow drawn on the back or where the bark used to be on the log...thats xactly what i was xplaining in above post...:mischeif:

[hoot gibson]

good to have you around bowmiller . bowmiller is a bowyer , dont let him try to fool you guys , sometimes he lets me sweep his shop. :D hoot

[MUZZY MAN]

Ok, the beginning, The tools.
1) Various quick clamps

2) Planer

3) Chainsaw file, Nicholsen, and other rasps.

4) Draw knife
I have other tools, rotory tool, sander,vices, I may be able to borrow a band saw, Might buy one. I will clamp the staves for air drying. Other suggestions?

[bowmiller]

Cabinet scraper, Bowyers Edge, tillering string, tillering board, toothing plane.

I've read where some bowyers advocate using a dull draw knife for chasing growth rings and removing bark, particularly with dry wood. don't waste your time, make your drawknife as sharp as you know how.

[MUZZY MAN]

Thanks Bowmiller, can you elaborate on the Boyers edge?

[coonskinner]

my tools are this...chainsaw,splitters,long handled ax...short handled slege...these tools will be of benefit cutting the tree down and splitting/quartering...a good heavy duty vice...broad ax...also a good drawknife,scraper,i have several in different shapes...farrier rasp,and a 8" rasp i believe...6" or 12" ruler ,calipers,small rat tail file,sanding blocks...coping saw...long tillering string...spoke shave...i have a tiller system where you use pullies and a long cable to tiller limbs...i also have a hanson scale that attaches to the cable to check bow poundage...they call it a tiller tree...i personally prefer them and they are easy to make...many tools here can be picked up at flea markets yardsales and auctions...live auctions good tools can be found real cheap...i really believe the older tools are made better in many cases...:mischeif:

[bowmiller]

the Bowyers Edge, in a nutshell, is a depth controlled cabinet scraper. sorta puts you in mind of a spokeshave in its appearance and the way you use it, but rather than raise a curl like the spokeshave does, it utulizes a spring steel blade(actually made from a Sandvik cabinet scraper) which has a 45 degree bevel ground on its edge, then the toe end of the bevel is mushroomed over like the corners on an actual cabinet scraper. this is a finesse tool used for precise wood removal during final tillering on a bows belly, while tiptoeing up to the growth ring you're after on the back and for cleaning up tool marks behind a coarse rasp such as a Nicholson #49 or #50 pattermakers rasp. this tool will pare off riibbons of osage thinner than notebook paper. best $50 you'll ever spend on a tool if you plan to make many wooden bows. I'm the proud owner of a limited edition Bowyers Edge with an osage handle.:biggrin:

they are made by Dean Torges(and he actually makes them at his shop in Ostrander). I think his website is www.bowyersedge.com (http://www.bowyersedge.com). tell him Young Jamie sent you.

also, I use a tillering tree, too. don't know how I ever made a serviceable bow without one, but I did for a few years. it is certainly worth the trouble of making one if you plan to make many bows. made mine for the price of a sturdy pulley and piece of good rope. had enough scrap lumber around (a 4' 2x6 and some 1x4 poplar for the cradle)to make the whole thing. is a good idea to have a tillering stick also. I use mine with a tillering string when bow is too heavy to brace in the early stages of tillering, and to hold it at a different draw length while I measure tiller after I'm able to actually brace the bow.

[MUZZY MAN]

Thanks guys, Some of these tools I'll have to find. I've seen pictures of a tiller tree and think I can make one. Can one of ya elaborate some on the drying proccess? I think the stave should be clamped to prevent twists? How long should a green peice dry before it's workable?

[MUZZY MAN]

I was reading that a green bow can be a plus. Because it will gain poundage as it cures? Sorry fellas am I being bothersome?

[coonskinner]

i find if you quarter a tree after cutting,i cut tree trunk to 7" workable pc.(straight)if possible which is likely with whitewood...i then quarter it right on the spot where i cut it...makes for hauling it out easier but the main reason is it relieves pressures within the tree and this quartering will prevent a lot of warpage,cracking,etc...i use 4 wedge splitters to split the log,i find a natural split in the log end or the pith that is in the best place to split the log evenly...i take a wedge and put it in the crack to start the log splitting,as soon as the log opens up i put another wedge in the side of the log split and pound it in til it splits farther down the log...i then put in another wedge ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE IN THE SPLIT FROM THE OTHER WEDGE...I continue using the 4 wedges each time going to the opposite side of the log with the wedges...pound with a sledge...the long handled ax comes in handy with the strands of wood still holding the log to gether after you have split it the length,just cut them and the log falls into 2 pc...you can coat the ends with elmers glue to prevent ends from splitting,i dont do this any more ,thats why i cut 7' length the log,it allows for ends splitting and it doesnt get to the wood for the bow...the more wedge splitters the better to get the log to split evenly in halves,the stagerring from side to side with the wedges seems to make the log split more even too......the quarters are big enough you can split them down again...this is from a nice size diameter tree...if you cut the tree in the spring it can be debarked too very easily,the bark is wet on the inside and falls off in one big piece...i let them dry in natural conditions,no artificial heat, in my garage about a month...

[bowmiller]

George, do you feel like your staves get dry enough by simply air drying them? any idea what the moisture content of air dried wood is in your garage?

I agree that several weeks of air drying is the best way to go, but that is only after I reduce a green(very high m.c.), split stave to an oversized bow blank, find the back of the bow and coat it with shellac(as a moisture barrier to prevent moisture from leaving through the back, which invites checking), make corrections with steam if necessary. at that point, my blanks sit for a minimum of a month. after that they can be introduced to gentle force drying, or rest indefinitely, whether that's a few month or a few years. either way that blank is going into the hotbox for several days before I go to work on it, and it will stay in a progressively warmer hotbox when I'm not working on it until its ready for finish. I don't think air dried wood is nearly dry enough for making a dependable hunting bow. but you don't need a hotbox to force dry, that just allows more control. putting wood in your attic in the summer or just indoors near your furnace or other warm place(where temperature and humidity is more constant) in cooler weather will allow wood to get considerably drier than being outdoors. moving air will help alot also.

[bowmiller]

Muzzy Man, you can take a green piece of wood and work it down to a nearly finished bow, but you don't want to bend it more than a few inches in the process. the smaller(read "thinner") a piece of wood is, the faster it will dry. when you pare down a stave to something that resembles a bow the excess moisture will leave quickly, but too quickly can lead to dreadful(and potentially fatal) checking. green wood, particularly osage, is easier to work than very dry wood, especially with tools that shave, like a drawknife, spokeshave, etc. green wood has a tendency to clog even good sharp rasps, in my experience, anyway.

bending a bow too much in the early stages of tillering, particularly a green stave, will cause excessive string follow, robbing your bow of any chance of performing up to its potential. the best wooden bows result from dry wood expertly tillered. when in doubt, let it dry some more. :)

[MUZZY MAN]

Jamie, what's your thoughts on a hickory stave. Would you cut to the heartwood? or leave some of the sapwood to the back?

[bowmiller]

defninately the white sapwood is what your bow should be made of. with hickory you need only to remove the outer and inner bark, and that will be the back of your bow. not wise to dig for a growth ring with hickory like you might want to do with osage.:tsk: actually, you can leave behind traces of the inner bark with no worries and the mottled appearance makes for nice camouflage, whether you stain the bow or not.

hickory is the most hygroscopic wood I've ever worked with, whether its a bow stave or an arrow shaft. I've come to the conclusion that it is not possible to make a hickory selfbow(of reaonable dimensions for a hunting bow) that doesn't follow the string excessively, eventually. is difficult to get it dry enough without overdrying. fresh from the hotbox hickory has good cast, is strong in tension and compression, and can make a great bow. over time hickory begins to deteriorate in its cast, follows the string excessively. the only thing that makes sense to me is that it just loves moisture, and even the finest catalized epoxy finish won't prevent the uptake of moisture over time with hickory. hickory probably makes a better bow if you live in the desert southwest where its hot and dry all the time.:coolgleamA:

[coonskinner]

actually mine is dried for years ,but i also have made a bow from being cut to done in less than a couple months...i have never used a moisture meter and never will...if i want to make a fast bow i widdle the wood down quick after lettin in sit bout 1 month as a quarter log or 2x4 sizedepending on tree size to speed up drying,take it down to stave and it will dry very fast for a week or so...but by then i have moved it to a slightly warmer place...when i feel the time is right i have quick dryed them in a hot car but dont do this anymore...after i have it widdled to a rough bow...i just basically take my time while working on it...i can tell when the wood is right and after that sequence it is right...but now i got so much wood its been reduced to 2x4 size ans sat for bout 3 yrs...something that is good with hickory and whitewood...i do make a lot of bows from walnut...including from complete heartwood and have yet to have a failure...hickory definately holds on to moisture but i have no problem with a little string follow which i believe only effects the early draw,but it also makes for a smooth draqwing bow...just my opinion on it...my bows are overbuilt,i can draw them well over 30"...which makes them very safe and durable at 28" draw...something i picked up from comstocks book...i find out with hickory you just take your sweet time once you have it worked to a rough bow,it will be well made and the string follow will be minimum...thats how i know when its dry enough...:mischeif: this is basically paul comstocks method that i use...

[bowmiller]

yea, I don't use moisture meter either. don't need to. wood tells you if its dry or not, you just gotta listen carefully:shhh: :16suspect1: :D

I like to always get bark off and reduce to a bow blank asap after tree hits the ground.

[coonskinner]

yea, I don't use moisture meter either. don't need to. wood tells you if its dry or not, you just gotta listen carefully:shhh: :16suspect1: :D

I like to always get bark off and reduce to a bow blank asap after tree hits the ground.




very true,and it will also tell you how to make the bow thats in there...:mischeif:

[coonskinner]

the bent stick by paul comstock(delaware ohio):mischeif: is a very good book on making whitewood selfbows...

[MUZZY MAN]

Right now I'm reading the Traditional Boyers Bible. I've also been surfing the boards at the Boyers Den. And of course the advice of you guys. Trying to gain knowledge. Also cleaning up my work bench, and getting tools. I want to get my ducks in a row and be prepared.

[coonskinner]

if you have trad. bowyers bible vol.1 paul comstock has an article on whitewood bows...tim baker has some good info too...:mischeif: i think jim hamm has an article on tillering thats real good...

[bowmiller]

Right now I'm reading the Traditional Boyers Bible. I've also been surfing the boards at the Boyers Den. And of course the advice of you guys. Trying to gain knowledge. Also cleaning up my work bench, and getting tools. I want to get my ducks in a row and be prepared.

that's too funny. when I decided I was going to make a wooden bow for hunting, I did the same thing. my first bowbuilding project was to actually making a workbench. after I designed and built a workbench , I got a copy of "The Bent Stick" by Paul Comstock and read it through with a highlighter in my hand. then read it again. gathered tools, procured a piece of hickory slab wood with enough meat on it for a 60lb bow(which turned out to be a 50lb bow:irked: ). dried the wood and got busy. still have that bow, and it still shoots. is ugly, slow, handle way too big, limbs too wide. I wouldn't take a million dollars for it:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin: . about the same instant that I shot that first arrow from that first bow, I realized that I was going to make alot of bows; an epiphany of sorts. of what wood, I didn't care, how long it took, I didn't care. I was going to make a bow to hunt with if it took me the rest of my life. fortunately it only took me a couple of years produce one that I deemed worthy of hunting big game.:irked: :yikes: . been making them ever since. lots of good information in Bowyers Bibles, lots of stuff unrelated to making a bow, too, but good stuff, nonetheless. I'd also recommend "Archery: The Technical Side" by Klopsteg, Nagler and Hickman. great stuff in there. "Target Archery" by Robert Elmer, "The Bowyers Craft" by the late Jay Massey, "The Flat Bow" by Hunt and Metz. "Bows and Arrows" by James Duff, "Hunting the Osage Bow" by Dean Torges and "Travels with Charllie" by John Steinbeck, which has nothing to do with archery, but is a great book anyway. :bouncy:

[coonskinner]

all those are very good books...there is a lot of good books and out of all i have read i use at least one thing i have read from each book...:mischeif:

[MUZZY MAN]

I injured my back. So I'm not doin much right now. I've got em sealed and sittin. I thought as I start, I might post pics of the various progres.

[mullskinner]

pic build along would be nice ......:bouncy: :bouncy:

[MUZZY MAN]

I'll try to do it then.

[mullskinner]

:woohoo1: :woohoo1:

[coonskinner]

this should be xciting...take your time muzzy...dont bend the wood too far til it speaks to you...:mischeif: ...:coco: