where have the fox gone?

[mrex]

I bought my wifes engagement ring with fox pelts back in the mid 80's. At that time, their value was high and lots of folks would pursue them. Back then, it was still very common to see one from a tree stand (mostly greys) while deer hunting here in Athens County. I haven't seen one from a stand in many years. I know they don't do well with coyotes and we sure have plenty of those, but does that explain their demise?

[Spring fever]

I'm just starting to see a few reds again in northern Hardin Co.after many years of seeing none. Can't explain it as there are still lots of yotes around here, even though they are hunted pretty hard.

:) __Sf

[lung buster]

I seen a red fox while i was on stand the other morning. He was eating on a gut pile that somebody (I would not know who ;) ) had left earlier that week!! :D

[Q2XL]

one area i yote hunt the farmer says there so many yote that the fox have their pups in his barn.

[coonskinner]

i can remember as far back as when i first started hunting in the early 60s it seemed spotty where there was fox...the most i seen was in the glen ebon area...and that was in a certain place too...this place was also loaded with rabbits,still is today and i still see quite a bit of fox there...also i seen my share at a farm i hunt occassionally near strouds run...it also has its share of rabbits and all other game including coyote :D :D :D

[mrex]

Talking with the few "die hards" in my area who still hunt them, their numbers are way down. And I know I used to see them while deer hunting quite frequently, and I don't anymore.

coonskinner - next time your in the area, look up "Indian Charley" and ask him about the fox population in SE Ohio.

[M.Magis]

The increase in coyote numbers means a decrease in fox numbers. If given the chance, a coyote will kill a fox.

[Jeff Goebel]

Definitely an endangered species here in my area.

[Thunderflight]

They've moved to North Carolina.

We've got more Fox (animal type) than you can shake a stick at.

[CritterGitter]

I see reds from time to time. I have seen 3 this year while deer hunting.

Kyle

[Buckmaster]

I think the numbers are down due to the increase in the coyote population.

[Redhunter1012]

Just scared one from the woods we pushed yesterday in southern Wood county. I don't really know what a high fox poulation would be. How many sightings would mean high or low? I usually see about 10-20 sightings a year in my area I guess. Don't know how many would be repeat sightings though. Dad says there used to be more when they were actually worth money. It's funny cause since the market on fur dropped the coon populations have exploded in my area and the yotes too. Why not the fox. I don't know if the coons would have a direct or indirect result. Maybe the coyotes are the common denominator. Definately a great thread for discussion.

[CritterGitter]

The trappers could likely enlighten us a little more with regard to this question. Though, I have a hunch. If yotes won't tolerate fox then with the prices of furs going down and less and less people trapping then the yote populations has grown and put the fox population in check. When trapping was huge there were likely more fox around because:

A) less yotes
B) they are a more crafty critter and didn't get trapped as easily.

Just a thought, but I suppose some verteran trappers could shed some light on this.

Kyle

[Redhunter1012]

CG, when you say they were a crafty critter when they were trapped, do you think they have De-evolved (if there is such a thing). I don't know if that is what you meant, but an interesting thought. Could an animal that is trapped or pursued regularly evolve into a less crafty animal due to lack of hunting? If that is the case maybe that is a contributing factor.

[CritterGitter]

What I meant is that when trapping was big then there were less yotes so yotes weren't killing the fox off. Also, fox were crafty so there weren't as many getting trapped(sure some, but not like the yotes and such).

So, less yotes = more fox. Now, we have lots more yotes which = less fox.


Kyle

[coonskinner]

coyotes were not in ohio for many years (prolly due to bounties)but somewhere in the seventies they migrated back into ohio...it seems they first came into the northern part of the state or northwest and kept xpanding their range southward...i still do not believe there is a whole lot in the athens area but i do know they are there...and i know theres more each year...it seems spotty too...i hear them the most out around strouds run at a relatives farm and when i'm catfishing at dow lake...i have some relatives that have sheep and i know they have some problems with them near the old millfied mine...in the glen ebon and chauncey area i do not hear or see them that much...concord church area near millfield i hear them more too and have got them to respond to my caller ... many have sheep out here...seems you find sheep you find coyotes:D :D :D

[mrex]

I should rephrase my question to, “what has happened to all the grey fox” in SE Ohio? We never really did have an abundance of reds in the big woods like the more open farm country. Back in the early 90’s, I wrote an article for Ohio Game and Fish about the technique of “howling” for coyotes. I learned this method from my turkey hunting buddy Dennis Kirk from Cooperstown NY. Dennis was a pioneer of exploiting an eastern coyotes need to be territorial and using it against them. Before the story was finished, I had done quite a bit of research on the eastern coyote. Coyotes were the first canines to arrive on the North American Continent. They crossed the land bridge (Bering Strait) from Russia to Alaska over 50 million years ago and this is the first time in history that coyotes have inhabited Ohio. Coyotes and wolves don’t do well together and we had wolves here 200 years ago. The coyotes range expanded greatly with the expansion of the whitetail deer population. The common thinking 15 years ago was that red fox populations, with their dog paws, are suppressed by their larger cousin, and grey fox, with their cat claws and ability climb to safety, are unaffected. I don’t believe it. I got a cam tracker photo of a grey fox in a scrape last fall and it’s the first evidence I’ve seen of one in 3 years. Grey fox, like ground hogs, are disappearing from these hills and I blame the coyotes.

[CritterGitter]

I have no idea about greys. I have never seen one in the wild.

Kyle

[trapperack]

here in n.w. ohio we had few if any yotes in the mid 70's. about the time the deer numbers and CRP ground was established, the yotes moved in. on a average year for fox trapping i would catch 5 or 6 greys to 15 reds. when the yotes moved in the greys moved out within 3 years. the yotes took over the "open" country where the reds used to run. the reds moved into the brushy area where the greys were. i have no clue whether the greys moved on or where killed out. i have caught 1 grey in the last 6 years. now that the yotes have been here for awhile their population has seem to have leveled off, and the reds are making a small comeback.in the last 6 years or so i have been getting around 65% reds to 35% yotes.

in my opinion, the CRP ground has more to do with the yotes coming in around us then anything else. when the farmers fall plowed the fields it left little to nothing for a larger k-9's to eat. just think how many 1000's mice and voles there are in an 80 acre CRP field.

a friend of mine watched a yote in a CRP field catch 15 mice in about 20 minutes, then walk over the the fence line and layup for the day. would 15 mice in a ball be about the size of a softball? sounds like a tummy full to me! yotes can and will eat just about anything, except racoons. i have no clue on that one either! i have caught 100's of coon and only had a coupled destroyed in the set ( dogs). i have also had yotes find reds in a set and it looked like those reds had a stick of tnt go off in their belly. i hardly ever have to take a skunk out of a set. i just shoot them and wait a day. if there are yotes around, the skunk WILL be gone!

gettin a bit windy, hope i haven't bored ya to death!

[CritterGitter]

Wow. Good info Trapperack. I would have never guessed that a yote would eat a skunk? Thanks for the insights.

Kyle

[razor]

Around my area the coyotes have pushed the red fox into small pockets, usually within feet of homes and roads. These are areas the coyote shy's away from. The last couple years i trapped i ran a line on about 20 different properties. All of the properties were similar in habitat and lay of land. What was odd would be only certain farms held fox, of the 20 properties i caught red fox on 5 of them. i caught a total of 28 reds my 2nd to last year, the following year, same farms and same line, total, i caught 5 red fox.
the second to last year coyote total was 21, the last year i trapped i got 26 coyotes. My point is the coyotes have the reds pinned to small territories and that makes them vulnerable to bein wiped out. kinda like fishin in a barrell. I know i didn't and couldn't catch them all but what i didn't get surely coyotes got a few of them too.
I'll have to do some diggin but i got pics of a double i caught on 1 farm. 1 set held a red fox and 20 ft. away the other set held a coyote. That, i always thought was pretty neat. I to, have came to a set with a dead red fox in it that coyotes had gotten, trapperack is right, they eat the guts out of them. that luckily only happened twice on my line.

Mrex,
Our grey's are gone to. when i was a kid i could catch 6 to 10 grey's a season, now i'm lucky to get 1. I was told that the grey's got a worm that was causing there demise. We used to be able to call grey's in at night often years ago, now i bet you'd be lucky to see 1. It sure sucks too, cause them grey's were alot more agressive comin to a call and in a trap. Personally i wouldn't think a coyote would reguraly mess with grey's, i could be wrong though. they are fisty little fellas.

I've read also that fox populations have a 15 year cycle, up and down with numbers, i hope were at the bottom of the cycle heading up! also hope that those studies included coyote invasions!

JD

[creekchub]

i seen a grey fox two deer seasons ago over on middle bailey road. anyhow what i have heard is that they had a sickness and a big die off and it has taken alot longer for them to come back if they ever will come back with the coytote population being what it is

[coonskinner]

middle bailey rd. near chauncey...:eek:

[CritterGitter]

Well........ I don't know why in the world anyone would be deer hunting near Middle Bailey Rd? Everyone knows there aint no deer around them parts!

lol

:D :p :D

Kyle

[coonskinner]

i agree...:D

[creekchub]

ive been hunting that ridge since the late 70's.

[lung buster]

I have not seen a gray fox for years around my area. The last time that I saw a gray was the very first morning that I ever bowhunted!! That has been about 15 or so years ago!! I can rember back when I was growing up that my dad always said that he would always see gray fox and it was a rare occasion to see a red!! Now all that we ever see is red fox!:confused:

[MASHUNTER18]

I think the coyotes take the premo areas and push all the fox into less favorable areas. I dont know much about greys seen a few in southeast ohio.

I know a few areas where if trapped catch would be 50/50 yote/red fox, has been for several years now.

Around home, Ill see maybe 1 red fox, for every 10 yotes, same with road kill, about 10 yotes to every red fox seen. I think the coyotes are more dominant and when they move into an area they push the fox out, fox end up in thick nasty areas, basically where food isnt as abundant..

I dont think coyotes are afraid to move in close to houses if they want to, part of alum creek is about 600 feet from my house,I hear them howl maybe once a month down there. Neighbor between me and the creek has an outdoor dog, I swear they were on his land today howling away, was pretty close in middle of the day. Im in the country not alot of houses around enough to hunt and what not.

I also think guys hunting the same land for years,, used to see fox, just now coyotes have pushed them off to different areas.



Where is this middle bailey road you guys talking about?? Never seen grey fox around any of these counties near Columbus

[creekchub]

in addition to my post i trap in an urban area with alot of growth going on! anyhow last season i took 4 coyotes. this season same area i have tanken 4 red fox and 1 coyote. so seems that the red fox are migrating back into the area as it gets built up more and more each day. i really believe that the human population and growth has alot to do with it.

[10Gauge]

mike,

We have a lot of foxes and coyotes on our lease in Vinton County. In my opinion the foxes are still abundent but seem to be in isolated pockets and still very nocternal as opposed to coyotes. For example, here in Montgomery county where I live we see coyotes everywhere ALL the time. Last year I decided to allow a guy to trap my property (under 10 acres) and he ran traps for about a week. He trapped 6 grey foxes the first 3 days and never got a coyote the whole season! Yet I see far more coyotes than foxes.

Another common mistake people make is mistaking grey foxes for coyotes in my area (unexperienced urban dwellers) and even mistaking greys for reds! I've been with many experienced hunters who see a fox and imeadiately will claim it was a red when infact it was a grey....some people just have never seen enough red foxes to know the difference and in my area red foxes are extremely rare.

[OHBOW76]

Coyotes will go out of there way to kill a fox. I have to admit though I saw two Red foxes this year.

[trapperack]

i found a red a couple years back out in the middle of a picked bean field. when i skinned it out, it had bite marks on the rear end and 4 punctures around the neck. looked like a yote ran him down then snuffed him out. had that red been in a trap where the yote had something to pull on, he would have been in at least 2 pieces.

[MASHUNTER18]

i found a red a couple years back out in the middle of a picked bean field. when i skinned it out, it had bite marks on the rear end and 4 punctures around the neck. looked like a yote ran him down then snuffed him out. had that red been in a trap where the yote had something to pull on, he would have been in at least 2 pieces.

I skinned out a couple red fox like that before myself, hind quarter damage and scaring. One fox was really old his teeth were pretty gone. I figure they managed to get away from dogs or yotes...